Greta Thunberg - brave campaigner or deeply disturbed? Part II.

[8enotto]

What you are now spouting is a form of climate denialism, the last stage: "It might be happening but there's nothing we can do about it". Don't do that.

I am not, I am pointing out human history. It's that simple. Don't read deeper than what I wrote.

 

[uke2se]

I am not, I am pointing out human history. It's that simple. Don't read deeper than what I wrote.

I am getting the sentiment that you are saying that most people think Greta is barking at the moon because nothing can be done about climate change. Instead we should focus on local and personal ways to combat climate change - presumably recycling, composting and a vegan diet.

None of those things will help one iota to combat climate change. Our individual choices aren't what's driving climate change. Collective choices are, and only collective choices can change that course. You can drive a gas guzzler, rolling coal your whole life, while I bike. Even so, my contribution to combating climate change would be pretty much the same as yours.

Giving up and talking about how we can never change course is playing straight into the hands of climate deniers. The one thing we as individuals can and should do is exactly what Greta is doing: bitch and whine to our elected leaders. Never let up. Never accept a refusal.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Indeed.

If Greta had called for gradual change, they would be more in line.

Are you seriously claiming during the civil rights movement (as one example) protestors called for gradual change?

You aren't very convincing.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Are you seriously claiming during the civil rights movement (as one example) protestors called for gradual change?

You aren't very convincing.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything.

Civil rights activists produced measurable results.

Greta's activism has produced nothing that advances her initial demands.

The argument that it takes time for activism to get results, is irrelevant in her case, because she demanded immediate action.

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

I'm not trying to convince you of anything.

Civil rights activists produced measurable results.

Greta's activism has produced nothing that advances her initial demands.

The argument that it takes time for activism to get results, is irrelevant in her case, because she demanded immediate action.

As did all activists.
I also fail to see how that is different.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

The argument that it takes time for activism to get results, is irrelevant in her case, because she demanded immediate action.

"We have also come to this hallowed spot to remind America of the fierce urgency of Now. This is not time to engage in the luxury of cooling off or to take the tranquilizing drug of gradualism." - Martin Luther King Jr.​

 

[sinnikal]

Rather good.
Feel the burn.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

"We have also come to this hallowed spot to remind America of the fierce urgency of Now. This is not time to engage in the luxury of cooling off or to take the tranquilizing drug of gradualism." - Martin Luther King Jr.​

OK

This relates to the success of Greta's activism, how?

 

[angrysoba]

OK

This relates to the success of Greta's activism, how?

Oh Jesus Christ! You were the one saying Greta fails because unlike the Civil Rights activists she isn’t willing to compromise and make gradual changes. That quote from MLK directly contradicts your claim so badly that your claim is reduced to a smoldering ruin.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

Instead we now have eastern Europe in flames and all done by diesel fueled war machines in large numbers. Surely this isn't reducing global emissions.

But it is. It has gotten Europe off the teat of Russian oil and gas. It made the price of fossil fuels skyrocket. More than ever before, people are now turning to greener alternatives out of necessity. And when the war is over that won't end.

The recent pandemic threw it all into disarray horribly and frankly no nation is willing to tank it's economy for her demands.

Most nations weren't willing to risk 'tanking' their economies even to stop the spread of a deadly virus. But the few that were willing did not tank their economies, while those that weren't came off worse. Then everyone suffered because the timid ones didn't act.

The same applies to getting off fossil fuels. We could do it tomorrow if the need was urgent enough, and still not tank our economies. But if we don't do it urgently, our economies will suffer.

It's stuff the average person anywhere on the globe really can't make a huge difference in changing. It's certainly bigger than lil' old me.

Nonsense. Every one of us has the power if we all act. Lead by example and others will follow.

The only solution for most of us it to try to change our own homes and local community... not even the Thunbergs are really even trying that as they put in on big government to find a way to fix it.

Can you vote? Then you have the power to influence government. If everybody demanded that their governments take action like Greta Thunbeg did, governments would act. That's their job, to fix things that individuals can't do by themselves. And they will do what we tell them - to get our votes.

Don't be an apathetic apologist. Tell everyone you know how urgent it is that we cut fossil fuel use now. Don't argue that we can't do it right now because our economies are too weakened by pandemics or wars. What they have done is nothing compared to what damage will occur if we don't limit global warming.

We should be striking while the iron is hot, taking the opportunity make big changes while people are used to it. And not putting down those who demand governments take action. We should all be demanding it.

 

[gnome]

Were she and her parents wrong to embark on that crusade? I don't know. Are you wrong to celebrate her as the champion of a cause you never actually supported? Yeah, I think you are.

There at least you're putting the criticism on the right target.

 

[Ryan O'Dine]

I feel like we've heard this tune a thousand times before.

White-Stevens called her "a fanatic defender of the cult of the balance of nature",[41] while some credited former U.S. Secretary of Agriculture Ezra Taft Benson, in a letter to former President Dwight D. Eisenhower, as the source of a frequent question posed by Carson's critics: "Why a spinster with no children was so concerned about genetics?" His supposed conclusion: Carson was "probably a Communist".[42]

That's Rachel Carson of Silent Spring^WP fame.

When environmentalists fought to preserve owl habitat in Washington State, they were "tree huggers."

They literally burned Carter in effigy in Alaska for his environmentalism. The White House solar panels were described, by Reagan's Chief of Staff, as "Just a joke."

By the time Al Gore came around, they were merciless and vicious. I think I mentioned earlier how he was mocked as "Ozone Man," not only by the feckless George Jr., but by the ever respectable George Sr. to boot.

And on it goes.

"Communist spinster," "Defender of the cult," "Tree hugger," "Ozone Man," "Cargo Cult."

Even the few on the right who recognize the problem can't seem to help themselves. It must be something deep in conservative psychology, I mean they'll even do it to a child. I guarantee whoever succeeds Thunberg will get the same treatment and worse. At some point you have to conclude it's not just something the right does, this is who they are.

Maybe someday a few will come to regret their long history of environmental obstructionism, their constant belittling of those speaking truth to power. But judging from threads like this, that day will not arrive any time soon.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Oh Jesus Christ! You were the one saying Greta fails because unlike the Civil Rights activists she isn’t willing to compromise and make gradual changes. That quote from MLK directly contradicts your claim so badly that your claim is reduced to a smoldering ruin.

I'm sure I'm not expressing myself very well.

I'm not saying Greta has failed personally..

I'm saying, along with others, that her activism is having no result in any way that matters. Why should we celebrate an activist who is not getting any results?

No one, no country, no entity that has the power to implement the changes that Greta has called for, it doing anything in that regard.

Now, if Greta backs off, and calls for gradual change, then those who are praising her activism, might have reason to celebrate..

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I'm sure I'm not expressing myself very well.
I'm not saying Greta has failed personally..

I'm saying, along with others, that her activism is having no result in any way that matters. Why should we celebrate an activist who is not getting any results?

No one, no country, no entity that has the power to implement the changes that Greta has called for, it doing anything in that regard.

Now, if Greta backs off, and calls for gradual change, then those who are praising her activism, might have reason to celebrate..

You think we don't hear/understand your POV?

 

[Matthew Best]

Why can’t she be like all other protesters throughout history, with their universal cry:

What do we want?

Change!

When do we want it?

Gradually!

 

[Checkmite]

Greta doesn't trigger most people. Most think she and her earlier demands are totally irrelevant and impossible.

I do not know if I agree that most people think her demands were or are impossible. I think most think they will never actively be met, but that's not the same thing - I, for instance, believe they could be met if the political will existed to meet them; unfortunately it does not. I don't think saying out loud what needs to be done makes one "wrong" just because what needs to be done depends on other people doing things who would never do those things. Bringing attention to that is useful in and of itself, if helps to discredit or harm confidence in ineffectual systems and leaders.

You are right that Greta Thunberg doesn't trigger most people. Many simply think she's wrong.

But, she absolutely does trigger some people. Some of them have even been in this thread.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

You think we don't hear/understand your POV?

 

[Roger Ramjets]

I'm sure I'm not expressing myself very well.

I'm not sure that you are right about that. Your position seems clear. It's not poorly expressed, just wrong.

What exactly has Greta Thunberg 'demanded' that is 'impossible'? And why is it impossible?

Greta Thunberg Sues Right-Wing Swedish Government Over Climate Inaction

Greta Thunberg and more than 600 other young climate activists are suing the Swedish government for failing to take adequate measures to stop climate change. The class action lawsuit, which was filed on Friday November 25 in Stockholm, is asking courts to demand that the Swedish government take greater climate responsibility.

Specifically, the lawsuit has asked for Sweden to undertake more stringent measures to reduce its GHG emissions in order to abide by the goals set out in the Paris Agreement, namely to restrict warming to 1.5 °C above pre-industrial levels...

Sweden also has its own self-determined targets which are more ambitious than the EU’s; as a nation, they are aiming to reach net zero emissions by 2045. The EU aims to achieve this by 2050.

Currently, Sweden also levies the highest carbon tax rate in the world at $126 per metric ton of carbon dioxide. However, this carbon tax has been criticised for being excessively narrow, as it only covers 40 percent of Sweden’s GHG emissions.

According to the Climate Change Performance Index, Sweden currently ranks fifth globally for its overall environmental performance...

However, Sweden’s new government is expected to cause setbacks to the nation’s climate progress.

In one of his first moves as prime minister, Kristersson sparked outcry by axing the Ministry of Environment. He preserved the position of Minister of Climate and Environment within his cabinet, but the position now works under the Minister for Energy, Business and Industry, rather than as a leader of a standalone ministry.

Sweden’s 2023 budget has also been criticised for including tax-cuts on petrol and diesel, which are expected to increase emissions from the transport sector.

What Greta Thunberg is 'demanding' is not unreasonable, she simply asks that governments do what they said they would to meet their legal and moral responsibilities. And she 'demands' that they listen to scientists rather than capitalists regarding what must be done and how.

There is no technical reason why we can't dramatically reduce emissions starting right now, only a lack of political will. Perhaps after being being raked over the coals in court, governments might actually get onto it.

As of 2020, the UNEP’s Global Climate Litigation Report found that a total of 1,550 climate change cases have been filed in 38 countries.

In 2021, a Paris court found the French government guilty of causing ecological damage due to their failure to meet GHG reduction targets. The original case, whose plaintiffs consisted of four NGO’s backed by 2 million citizens, was brought in 2018.

In 2019, the Dutch Supreme Court also upheld a previous ruling that had ordered the Dutch government to drastically cut its GHG emissions in order to comply with human rights obligations.

You say Greta's demands are 'impossible' because they require immediate change. I say immediate change is what we need, and it's only 'impossible' if we pay lip-service to it and hand wave away real change as being too hard.

It seems as if Sweden’s new government is attempting to have its cake and eat it too. This approach is trying to unite the best of both worlds by relieving some financial pressure on ordinary citizens whilst compensating for the downsides of the compromise by investing in a greener future.

However, Greta and other young people are fighting for politicians and governments alike to realise that the economic threat of climate change will increase the longer the issue is pushed aside. Predictions show that this winter’s recession will be inconsequential compared to the economic downturn that could result from climate catastrophe.

Currently, politicians are choosing to be more short-sighted about the future of our planet than the average teenager. In order for that to change, we all, like Greta, need to increase the pressure on those in power and hold them accountable for their actions, or lack thereof.

 

[Stout]

Well, it's been three years and change since Thunberg made her famous How dare you speech and we've all had plenty of time to hygge out with a warm delicious bowl of George Monbiot's fermented goo(YouTube link) and formulate out visions of just how western society would look if we were to make a serious attempt at limiting warming to 1.5C in the next 6 years, 200 days.

People would most definitely benefit from hearing these visions for the pro Thunberg camp so we can all share in them and dream along together. I've done it, and posted it to this very thread, but I'm supposed to be an alt-right MAGA Chud climate denier. On the upside, nobody challenged my plan so I wont link to it as it has many many effective ideas but would be rather tough to sell to the general public.

Keep in mind, Thunberg is demanding real zero, not net zero, so actions like pissant lawsuits and raising carbon taxes aren't going to cut it. We need real action here to help realize the climate nirvana and I may just use the best entry as a template for the GoFundMe I'm thinking about setting up to help raise the $32 trillion that "we" owe the developing world.

Now I'm just going to go re watch A Year to Save the World while my driveway slowly rewilds itself and captures carbon. I'll leave you with a little more inspiration if you need it to get those creative juices flowing.

Just Stop Oil activist in tears during M25 protest YouTube Link

 

[Chanakya]

I'm sure I'm not expressing myself very well.

I'm not saying Greta has failed personally..

I'm saying, along with others, that her activism is having no result in any way that matters. Why should we celebrate an activist who is not getting any results?
No one, no country, no entity that has the power to implement the changes that Greta has called for, it doing anything in that regard.

Now, if Greta backs off, and calls for gradual change, then those who are praising her activism, might have reason to celebrate..

Why would we celebrate her?

1. Because we admire her spirit and her courage?

2. Because we admire the effect she's had, in mobilizing awareness?

3. Because we admire how this then-child and now young woman effortlessly stands up to low life bullies like Trump and Tate, and reduces them and their bluster to figures of fun?

4. Because we believe in and support what she stands for?

5. Because while she may not yet have achieved all she hoped for, she has yet achieved a lot?

6. Because it is she and people like her who've ever made things like this happen?

7. Because her efforts may still help make things better, if we all join in?

8. Because, as shown upthread, she's exactly like all other great activists? In achieving far less than she set out to, and yet achieved a great deal?

9. Because there's only two ways not to support her: first, those who don't support her cause, climate change deniers as well as complete cynics; and second, those who keep committing the Nirvana fallacy?