The Supernatural Part II

[Leumas]

There's a fourth option, actually. Maybe it's supposed to be porn? ...

That is not a fourth option... it is covered under option 1 or 2 ... or even 3.

...Let's not forget Mo was something of a Humbert Humbert, except his tastes went even younger.

Just like YHWH's... who demanded his share of the booty of 32 little virgin girls from the 32,000 little girls left over after Moses at his behest extirpated their entire kin and kith.

 

[JayUtah]

...where's the soot on his red suit, then, huh, huh, HUNH?

The canonical "A Visit From St. Nicholas" by Moore clearly mentions ashes and soot on his clothing. But the costume Moore describes is not the red suit. That visual was by Thomas Nast, and his original illustration is inconclusive on the depiction of soot. If modern depictions ignore this, they are bad translations and need more references to black holes or something.

 

[IanS]

Haven't watched this yet, but I've bookmarked the link, and I do intend to at least sample a bit of it later on.

As far as debunking these asinine claims by actually going back to the verses and all (rather than the hard-core science stuff per se) --- not really called for, as you say, much like there's no call for actually debunking claims that Santa drops down chimneys (where's the soot on his red suit, then, huh, huh, HUNH?) --- one thing that stood out in this thread as far as that sort of thing specifically, was, I'd say, Scorpion's very able refutation of heydarian's claim that when the Quran speaks of the Sun going around, it means going around the center of the galaxy. I loved how he showed, beyond any question of the slightest doubt, that the Quran did mean exactly that the Sun goes around Earth. (Again, that's like showing by quoting chapter and verse that Santa does not favor chimneys, but still.)

Yeah, that's actually dealt with in the video (Sun going aroud the Earth, and the Quran also saying that the Sun goes to a resting place each day, and is then commanded by Allah each morning to rise again to repeat it's same path again for the next day) ... and same is said in the Quran for the Moon ... the Moon is also said to be a lamp or light like the Sun, except not so bright ... it's clear from that verse that the writers of the Quran did not know that the Moon is merely reflecting the light of the Sun (the verse numbers are all given in the video) ...

... but of course the problem is that when you/we are talking to Heydarian and his I'jaz fundamentalists, he will just claim that the key words of each verse have been mis-translated in the past, and that this is now corrected by his new I'jaz translations, which remove a word that that actually said (for example) "spread" or "extend" and they change it for "expanding", and then claim that the Quran revealed that the Universe is "expanding" ... which they say is a revelation of the Big Bang and Hubble and others discovering that space is expanding ...

... that actual verse is Sura 51:47, where above I just gave the traditional and previously universally accepted translations (and interpretations, which they call Tafsir) of that verse, which are (to repeat it) -

https://www.quranicstudies.com/quran/does-the-quran-speak-about-an-expanding-universe/


Translator & Translation

Pickthall
We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).

Palmer
And the heaven — we have built it with might, and, verily, we do surely give it ample space!

Rodwell
And the Heaven — with our hands have we built it up, and given it its expanse.

Sale
We have built the heaven with might; and we have given [it] a large extent.

Shakir
And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample.

Sher Ali
And We have built the heavens with Our own hands, and, verily, We have vast powers.

Yusuf Ali
With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of pace.

But some translations allow a link between the verse and the expanding universe concept:

Translator & Translation

Arberry
And heaven — We built it with might, and We extend it wide.

Hilali-Khan
With power did We construct the heaven. Verily, We are Able to extend the vastness of space thereof.

Khalifa
We constructed the sky with our hands, and we will continue to expand it.


Here, just as an aside, on the point of ancient Arabic language having so many different meanings for what appears to be the same word – in those ten translations alone, which are translating just one very short line of text, there are about 8 different translations of what the most vital key word means , ie the word or term *“lamūsi‘ūn”, plus about 60 or 70 other variations of the other few words in the one-line sentence! But there I digress (and I'm certainly not going to be drawn into an argument of that sort with any other posters here (apart from Heydarian himself).

But, that link above ( https://www.quranicstudies.com/quran/does-the-quran-speak-about-an-expanding-universe/ ) gives an in-depth discussion of that key word “lamūsi‘ūn”, where the author de-bunks in detail Heydarian's I'jaz claim that the word means “expanding” … in the above link it is argued, quite convincingly I would suggest, that “expanding” is the least likely to be a correct interpretation …

… However, what is not mentioned in that link, but which also seems to me to be crucial, is that in every translation, including those from Heydarian & I'jaz, the word “Universe”, or the word “Space” is NOT there … in the Quran the concept of what we now understand as a “universe” or “deep space” simply did not exist beyond what people could see with the naked eye as the “Sky”, which they thought was also somehow combined with an invisible part called “heaven” where Allah/God lived (and where Allah had organised his homely Heaven into 7 different layers) … what is claimed to be “expanding” in any translation of Surah 51:47 is only that visible sky with it's layers of “heaven” … that is also translated as an “expanse” or “spread out” …

… the Quran is clearly talking about a concept where it was believed that the Earth and the Universe did not exist at all until Allah commanded them to appear, so that when the Earth and the Sky/heaven did obediently appear, such that people could all see it, it looked to everyone as if it had all been spread out over a vast area so huge that their eyes alone could not see it's end … so in the case of an “expanded” sky for example, they thought it was visually obvious that Allah had made a sky and a heaven that was “spread out”, “expanded”, “we expanded it” as far as the eye could see in every direction … to them it looked endless …

… that's what is being said in Surah 51:47 … there is no concept there of any Universe or any depth of exterior Space existing at all ... and no concept of that entrie universe or deep distant space expanding …

… and here we should also note that, the sky above the Earth, and indeed as far as I know neither our solar system, nor even our entire galaxy, is actually expanding … what is expanding is the nature of Space-time itself … that's called a “Metric expansion”, which means (and I'll just quote Wiki for this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expansion_of_the_universe ) -

“ It is an intrinsic expansion whereby the scale of space itself changes. The universe does not expand "into" anything and does not require space to exist "outside" it. This expansion involves neither space nor objects in space "moving" in a traditional sense, but rather it is the metric (which governs the size and geometry of spacetime itself) that changes in scale. “


OK, without going further into the metric expansion of space-time (!) – what this means is that the sky that we can see above us and which the Quran is talking about, with any supposedly connected “layers of heaven”, is NOT expanding … our solar system is NOT expanding … even our entire galaxy is NOT expanding! … in fact the region of space which our galaxy occupies is also what is said to be “gravitationally bound” to any other nearby massive objects such as the Andromeda galaxy M31 which is 2.5 million light years away from us, and the point there is that the entire space-time between us and M31 is also NOT expanding …

… the only parts which are expanding relative to us (ie our Earth, in the Milky Way) are objects or regions of space that are not gravitationally bound to us.

And the point of all of that is – clearly the writers of the Quran, and Heydarian, knew nothing at all of that … Heydarian and the I'jazz proclaimers have believed that the space above the Earth, ie the Sky is expanding … and/or that the distance from Earth to the visible Moon and the Sun and any naked-eye visible stars is all expanding, but none of those are in a process of expansion as described by Hubble and others, and as described by the Relativity Theory of Space-Time … In fact, because everything within our own galaxy inc. planet Earth, and even including the external galaxy M31 (as described above) is so-called “gravitationally bound” together, all of that is actually collapsing together!, NOT moving apart!

OK, enough for now.

 

[Chanakya]

The canonical "A Visit From St. Nicholas" by Moore clearly mentions ashes and soot on his clothing. But the costume Moore describes is not the red suit. That visual was by Thomas Nast, and his original illustration is inconclusive on the depiction of soot. If modern depictions ignore this, they are bad translations and need more references to black holes or something.

I actually went back and checked out that old poem, and sure enough there's ashes and soot there, as you say. So that particular debunking, as I'd put it there, if it had been meant literally, wouldn't actually stand, heh!

 

[Chanakya]

Yeah, that's actually dealt with in the video (Sun going aroud the Earth, and the Quran also saying that the Sun goes to a resting place each day, and is then commanded by Allah each morning to rise again to repeat it's same path again for the next day) ... and same is said in the Quran for the Moon ... the Moon is also said to be a lamp or light like the Sun, except not so bright ... it's clear from that verse that the writers of the Quran did not know that the Moon is merely reflecting the light of the Sun (the verse numbers are all given in the video) ...

... but of course the problem is that when you/we are talking to Heydarian and his I'jaz fundamentalists, he will just claim that the key words of each verse have been mis-translated in the past, and that this is now corrected by his new I'jaz translations, which remove a word that that actually said (for example) "spread" or "extend" and they change it for "expanding", and then claim that the Quran revealed that the Universe is "expanding" ... which they say is a revelation of the Big Bang and Hubble and others discovering that space is expanding ...

... that actual verse is Sura 51:47, where above I just gave the traditional and previously universally accepted translations (and interpretations, which they call Tafsir) of that verse, which are (to repeat it) -

https://www.quranicstudies.com/quran/does-the-quran-speak-about-an-expanding-universe/


Translator & Translation

Pickthall
We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).

Palmer
And the heaven — we have built it with might, and, verily, we do surely give it ample space!

Rodwell
And the Heaven — with our hands have we built it up, and given it its expanse.

Sale
We have built the heaven with might; and we have given [it] a large extent.

Shakir
And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample.

Sher Ali
And We have built the heavens with Our own hands, and, verily, We have vast powers.

Yusuf Ali
With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of pace.

But some translations allow a link between the verse and the expanding universe concept:

Translator & Translation

Arberry
And heaven — We built it with might, and We extend it wide.

Hilali-Khan
With power did We construct the heaven. Verily, We are Able to extend the vastness of space thereof.

Khalifa
We constructed the sky with our hands, and we will continue to expand it.


Here, just as an aside, on the point of ancient Arabic language having so many different meanings for what appears to be the same word – in those ten translations alone, which are translating just one very short line of text, there are about 8 different translations of what the most vital key word means , ie the word or term *“lamūsi‘ūn”, plus about 60 or 70 other variations of the other few words in the one-line sentence! But there I digress (and I'm certainly not going to be drawn into an argument of that sort with any other posters here (apart from Heydarian himself).

But, that link above ( https://www.quranicstudies.com/quran/does-the-quran-speak-about-an-expanding-universe/ ) gives an in-depth discussion of that key word “lamūsi‘ūn”, where the author de-bunks in detail Heydarian's I'jaz claim that the word means “expanding” … in the above link it is argued, quite convincingly I would suggest, that “expanding” is the least likely to be a correct interpretation …

… However, what is not mentioned in that link, but which also seems to me to be crucial, is that in every translation, including those from Heydarian & I'jaz, the word “Universe”, or the word “Space” is NOT there … in the Quran the concept of what we now understand as a “universe” or “deep space” simply did not exist beyond what people could see with the naked eye as the “Sky”, which they thought was also somehow combined with an invisible part called “heaven” where Allah/God lived (and where Allah had organised his homely Heaven into 7 different layers) … what is claimed to be “expanding” in any translation of Surah 51:47 is only that visible sky with it's layers of “heaven” … that is also translated as an “expanse” or “spread out” …

… the Quran is clearly talking about a concept where it was believed that the Earth and the Universe did not exist at all until Allah commanded them to appear, so that when the Earth and the Sky/heaven did obediently appear, such that people could all see it, it looked to everyone as if it had all been spread out over a vast area so huge that their eyes alone could not see it's end … so in the case of an “expanded” sky for example, they thought it was visually obvious that Allah had made a sky and a heaven that was “spread out”, “expanded”, “we expanded it” as far as the eye could see in every direction … to them it looked endless …

… that's what is being said in Surah 51:47 … there is no concept there of any Universe or any depth of exterior Space existing at all ... and no concept of that entrie universe or deep distant space expanding …

… and here we should also note that, the sky above the Earth, and indeed as far as I know neither our solar system, nor even our entire galaxy, is actually expanding … what is expanding is the nature of Space-time itself … that's called a “Metric expansion”, which means (and I'll just quote Wiki for this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expansion_of_the_universe ) -

“ It is an intrinsic expansion whereby the scale of space itself changes. The universe does not expand "into" anything and does not require space to exist "outside" it. This expansion involves neither space nor objects in space "moving" in a traditional sense, but rather it is the metric (which governs the size and geometry of spacetime itself) that changes in scale. “


OK, without going further into the metric expansion of space-time (!) – what this means is that the sky that we can see above us and which the Quran is talking about, with any supposedly connected “layers of heaven”, is NOT expanding … our solar system is NOT expanding … even our entire galaxy is NOT expanding! … in fact the region of space which our galaxy occupies is also what is said to be “gravitationally bound” to any other nearby massive objects such as the Andromeda galaxy M31 which is 2.5 million light years away from us, and the point there is that the entire space-time between us and M31 is also NOT expanding …

… the only parts which are expanding relative to us (ie our Earth, in the Milky Way) are objects or regions of space that are not gravitationally bound to us.

And the point of all of that is – clearly the writers of the Quran, and Heydarian, knew nothing at all of that … Heydarian and the I'jazz proclaimers have believed that the space above the Earth, ie the Sky is expanding … and/or that the distance from Earth to the visible Moon and the Sun and any naked-eye visible stars is all expanding, but none of those are in a process of expansion as described by Hubble and others, and as described by the Relativity Theory of Space-Time … In fact, because everything within our own galaxy inc. planet Earth, and even including the external galaxy M31 (as described above) is so-called “gravitationally bound” together, all of that is actually collapsing together!, NOT moving apart!

OK, enough for now.

Sure, agreed, to all of that, IanS, absolutely.

What I'd referred to, though, was this: heydarian had claimed that the references in the Quran to the sun going around, referred to its going not around earth but around the center of the galaxy. So then Scorpion produced another reference, that said something like this (I'm quoting approximately and from imperfect memory): Every night the sun, after completing its journey, goes and bows to Allah, and Allah gives it leave to continue its journey. But then one day it will so happen --- I forget if the verse mentions why this will happen, but whatever --- that Allah will not give the sun leave to continue, and instead order it to return whence it came, and naturally the sun will obey. So that, after that, the sun, instead of rising in the east, will rise in the west instead.

There's no hard-core science per se in that refutation. But I liked how Scorpion very skilfully used the second verse to completely skewer heydarian's claim, beyond a dream of a shadow of any kind of doubt or ambiguity or equivalence (and even if seen through religion-crazed reason-free eyes), and showed that the Quran does speak of the sun going around the earth. That is, there's no way heydarian can even claim ambiguous word meanings, or any of those linguistic sleight of hand, to somehow weasel his way out that one. There's simply no way at all for him not to have to accept Scorpion's conclusion.

And incidentally, and not surprisingly given what we know of our protagonist by now, heydarian simply ignores that simple yet elegant piece of research-into-the-Quran and reasoning on Scorpion's part, and simply goes back to spouting his usual nonsense --- much like he's been studiously ignoring the more science-y refutations from you, for instance, and JayUtah as well.


...So anyway, your refutation video --- that I still haven't got down to watching, but I do intend to check out at least a bit of it --- reminded me of Scorpion likewise refuting the Quran while using the Quran itself, without going all science-heavy. (No doubt this video also won't be very heavy on science, and rely mainly on using the Quran itself to debunk these people's absurd claims.)

 

[IanS]

And another thing, whilst we are (or at least, I am) giving links to people such as Apostate Prophet de-bunking claims of science in the Koran – having just looked at that above YouTube film de-bunking 60 claims of science in the Quran, I also came across a YouTube film of him in a “debate” moderated by Aron Ra against an I'jaz believer like Heydarian (making the same sort of claims). Take a look at this, because this is embarrassing beyond words -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyK2ehiqn3U

Here his Islamic I'jaz opponent, Nadir Ahmed, asks for scientific papers that have explicitly claimed that Allah could not have hurled stars at devils in the sky (i.e. “shooting stars”, which of course Apostate Prophet points out are not actually stars at all), and that Allah could not have placed mountains on Earth held with supports placed deep into the ground etc. !!?? …

… and he then says that when Allah created planet Earth there were no tectonic plates that caused mountains, but mountains still existed from the moment of creation because the earths crust was hot & molten and that meant “volcano mountains”. But when the Earth first formed, science believes that it was a molten mass where volcanic activity was AFAIK within that molten mass … then as the planet cooled over next few thousand years a solid crust began to form and that allowed water to collect as lakes and seas … AFAIK there were at that stage no high solid features of mountains or any rocky peaks of volcanoes as we see today …

… though in any case, the Quran is explicitly talking too, and pointing peoples attention too, the high surface solid rocky mountains that we can see today and which could be seen by everyone in biblical times and in the 7th century of the Quran … there is no description in the Quran of Earth's initial formation as a molten mass of lava with gasses that eventually cooled to allow seas of liquid water covering almost the entire planet …

… so here again, the claim made here from Islamic fundamentalists like this guy Nadir Ahmed (and from Heydarian, and similarly from probably 300-million other Muslims today), is complete 100% embarrassing nonsense.

 

[IanS]

Sure, agreed, to all of that, IanS, absolutely.

What I'd referred to, though, was this: heydarian had claimed that the references in the Quran to the sun going around, referred to its going not around earth but around the center of the galaxy. So then Scorpion produced another reference, that said something like this (I'm quoting approximately and from imperfect memory): Every night the sun, after completing its journey, goes and bows to Allah, and Allah gives it leave to continue its journey. But then one day it will so happen --- I forget if the verse mentions why this will happen, but whatever --- that Allah will not give the sun leave to continue, and instead order it to return whence it came, and naturally the sun will obey. So that, after that, the sun, instead of rising in the east, will rise in the west instead.

There's no hard-core science per se in that refutation. But I liked how Scorpion very skilfully used the second verse to completely skewer heydarian's claim, beyond a dream of a shadow of any kind of doubt or ambiguity or equivalence (and even if seen through religion-crazed reason-free eyes), and showed that the Quran does speak of the sun going around the earth. That is, there's no way heydarian can even claim ambiguous word meanings, or any of those linguistic sleight of hand, to somehow weasel his way out that one. There's simply no way at all for him not to have to accept Scorpion's conclusion.

And incidentally, and not surprisingly given what we know of our protagonist by now, heydarian simply ignores that simple yet elegant piece of research-into-the-Quran and reasoning on Scorpion's part, and simply goes back to spouting his usual nonsense --- much like he's been studiously ignoring the more science-y refutations from you, for instance, and JayUtah as well.


...So anyway, your refutation video --- that I still haven't got down to watching, but I do intend to check out at least a bit of it --- reminded me of Scorpion likewise refuting the Quran while using the Quran itself, without going all science-heavy. (No doubt this video also won't be very heavy on science, and rely mainly on using the Quran itself to debunk these people's absurd claims.)

Just re the movement of the Sun as described in the Quran - the verses are very explicitly describing the Sun by day giving way to the Moon by night ... that's a 24 hour change, whereas it takes 230-million years for our Sun to make just one orbit of our galaxy!

So that's the first refutation of Heydarian's claim that the Quran is talking about the Sun orbiting around the galaxy (that's actually a standard claim very often made by I'jaz preachers by the way).

But the second refutation that I see is that the Quran never mentions any such thing as a "galaxy" ... there is no concept of any such thing as galaxy in any of those verses of any Quran.

 

[Leumas]

<snip good stuff>

All one needs to definitively debunk the Quran as the work of yet another charlatan just like all the others in the annals of human perfidy and gullibility is....

Note that it repeats all the fairy tales of the Buybull... almost verbatim in many cases... and even the further fables in the Talmud too.​

Abraham never existed, yet the Quran has him as the first Muslim and repeats fairy tales about him as if he were real... all plagiarized from the Buybull...

So.. the Quran is definitely a derivative claptrap from earlier flimflam in the Buybull and Talmud... and even proto-christian fables... and Greek and Zoroastrian poppycock.

This is an irrefutable FACT... and thus... all this casuistic poppycock about hindsight gleaned pseudo-science retrofitting... is abjectly pointless and does not in any way redeem the pile of preposterous claptrap from clearly being derivative codswallop.




.

 

[Leumas]

...

... that actual verse is Sura 51:47, where above I just gave the traditional and previously universally accepted translations (and interpretations, which they call Tafsir) of that verse, which are (to repeat it) -

https://www.quranicstudies.com/quran/does-the-quran-speak-about-an-expanding-universe/...

EXACTLY.... I was about to explain the fact that the same word is used in Q2:236 and is translated as "rich" or "capable" or "has the means".... but your reference already covered all that and more.... well done!!!

The apologists (and even antagonists) who "translate" the Quran are not doing so with honesty... they are doing interpretation at the same time and in many even eisegesis without telling the reader... so the reader is duped into thinking that this is what the actual Arabic says.

You are correct that Arabic is written in a flawed and incomplete script (Abjad) that renders different words with distinct meanings (and in some cases even totally) to look the same in script.

The addition of diacritics denoting the missing vowels and amending the Arabic flawed incomplete script so as to disambiguate the text, has to a great extent rectified the problem with this inadequate script... much like the Aramaic abjad used anachronistically by YHWH (a.k.a. Allah) to purportedly write down the dialect of Canaanite language that is called by bible thumpers Hebrew (see this post).

Most Quran texts are done with this correction of the ambiguous script.... thus translators have no excuse when they deliberately obfuscate in order to serve their agendas while pretending to be translating when in fact they are interpreting and eisegeting their own stances or askance takes on the claptrap that is the Quran.

This word La-musi'-oona (لَمُوسِعُونَ)... is a typical example of the PERFIDY and flimflam of modern day apologists.

With the diacritics as shown and as used in the Quran... the word means "Certainly Capable Ones" ... or "Certainly Endowed Ones"...

This of course, as your citation already mentioned, is clearly illustrated in the very same word used in Q2:236 and other places where it is translated as "wealthy" or "rich" or "capable".


ETA: And the word سماء definitely means SKY not universe or anything of the sort... this is attested to by the usage of the word in many verses (e.g. 13:2, 21:32, 54:11, 2:19, 2:22, 6:99, 11:44, 8:11, 10:24, 78:19, 5:112, 6:6, 15:14 etc. etc.), where it describes clouds and rain and thunder and windows in or from the roof that is held up with invisible pillars by Allah... or heavens... at most... as in the abode of Allah above the dome of the sky.

 

[heydarian saeed]

Quranic prophecy for the future and destiny of the universe:
God has said in Surah 21:104: The day when We will twist the sky like wrapping the pages of letters and books. And just as we started the creation the first time and expanded the "single", we return the universe to the "single" again. This is a promise that we will fulfill.
" يَوْمَ نَطْوِي السَّمَاء كَطَيِّ السِّجِلِّ لِلْكُتُبِ كَمَا بَدَأْنَا أَوَّلَ خَلْقٍ نُّعِيدُهُ وَعْدًا عَلَيْنَا إِنَّا كُنَّا فَاعِلِينَ"
God said this prophecy in the Qur'an in the seventh century. And in the last century, scientists have discovered it.
The signs of the Day of Resurrection, what great events will happen in the universe, God has said in the Qur'an in various verses.
The stars will die out and turn into cosmic black holes. All the heavenly bodies will shake. And they all become smooth. And they will return to the singularity like a thin thread through wormholes and space black holes. The sun goes out. and turns into a black hole. devours the solar system. The earth becomes extremely hot. The seas are on fire! And finally the earth will be swallowed by the black hole of the sun.
Science still cannot understand what will happen inside a black hole. The Qur'an says that the end of black holes is the singularity. That is, black holes are the link between the universe and the singularity. And it does not exist at that time. (Part of verses in Surahs 54-56-69-70-74-75-78-81-82-84-86)
It is impossible to understand these contents by science. This knowledge and power is only for God. The Qur'an is only the word of God. And it is unique. No one can claim to have said the Quran. Muhammad only received the Qur'an through the special and powerful energy and force of God's revelation (Gabriel). And he said it to the people according to the duty of his prophet. And the writers of the Qur'an, like Ali, wrote it. And now it is in our hands. Everyone just did their job. The speaker is only God. This statement has a completely scientific and historical reference. And it has been proven. Only unbelievers deny this truth. Without any reason or scientific and historical references!!
These Qur'anic verses tell only a part of the events of the Day of Judgment. Read the Quran to see the sea of ​​these beautiful scientific contents.
I have not fallen in love with the Qur'an for no reason. No matter how much I see and read these beautiful scientific materials in the Qur'an. I fall in love more. And I am always thirsty to read and understand the contents of the Qur'an. And I am proud to read the Quran.
If people follow the Qur'an. And if their approach is according to the Qur'an, the world will become paradise. Unfortunately, people and governments, especially Islamic governments, none of them act according to the Qur'an. The proof of my claim is wars - the destruction of human societies and human crimes. which exists all over the world. This is a fact that cannot be denied. I do not accept the approach of any government. And I reject all of them.

 

[heydarian saeed]

EXACTLY.... I was about to explain the fact that the same word is used in Q2:236 and is translated as "rich" or "capable" or "has the means".... but your reference already covered all that and more.... well done!!!

The apologists (and even antagonists) who "translate" the Quran are not doing so with honesty... they are doing interpretation at the same time and in many even eisegesis without telling the reader... so the reader is duped into thinking that this is what the actual Arabic says.

You are correct that Arabic is written in a flawed and incomplete script (Abjad) that renders different words with distinct meanings (and in some cases even totally) to look the same in script.

The addition of diacritics denoting the missing vowels and amending the Arabic flawed incomplete script so as to disambiguate the text, has to a great extent rectified the problem with this inadequate script... much like the Aramaic abjad used anachronistically by YHWH (a.k.a. Allah) to purportedly write down the dialect of Canaanite language that is called by bible thumpers Hebrew (see this post).

Most Quran texts are done with this correction of the ambiguous script.... thus translators have no excuse when they deliberately obfuscate in order to serve their agendas while pretending to be translating when in fact they are interpreting and eisegeting their own stances or askance takes on the claptrap that is the Quran.

This word La-musi'-oona (لَمُوسِعُونَ)... is a typical example of the PERFIDY and flimflam of modern day apologists.

With the diacritics as shown and as used in the Quran... the word means "Certainly Capable Ones" ... or "Certainly Endowed Ones"...

This of course, as your citation already mentioned, is clearly illustrated in the very same word used in Q2:236 and other places where it is translated as "wealthy" or "rich" or "capable".


ETA: And the word سماء definitely means SKY not universe or anything of the sort... this is attested to by the usage of the word in many verses (e.g. 13:2, 21:32, 54:11, 2:19, 2:22, 6:99, 11:44, 8:11, 10:24, 78:19, 5:112, 6:6, 15:14 etc. etc.), where it describes clouds and rain and thunder and windows in or from the roof that is held up with invisible pillars by Allah... or heavens... at most... as in the abode of Allah above the dome of the sky.

First of all, you do not know the rules of the Arabic language. Secondly, because of this, your understanding of Arabic words and sentences is wrong or incomplete. Have you invited an Arabic language expert to explain it to you completely? Never. Because you are prejudiced
Third, you are completely wrong about the translation of Quranic phrases. Because first of all, you are not familiar with Quranic concepts. Secondly, the translation and interpretations that you have read are related to the 7th century. We only accept the meanings and translations of the main verses of the Qur'an from the 7th century until now. But the translation and interpretation of the similar verses of the Qur'an must be up to date. And we accept the updated translation and interpretation of these verses. And this is the correct way of translating and interpreting similar verses of the Qur'an. I have said this many times in my previous messages. But unfortunately, you repeat it again because of your prejudice. I'm sorry

 

[heydarian saeed]

The word "سماء" means sky in some verses it means the same sky . The sky that we see from the ground with the naked eye. Without equipment like a telescope. But in some verses of the Qur'an, sky means the universe. These two meanings for the word sky are found in meanings and translations.
The word "لموسعون" means we have expanded. And it means expanding the single. Other meanings are from the 7th century. But the modern meaning of this word is this: we expanded the single.
Please be updated. The Quran is always up to date.

 

[IanS]

Quranic prophecy for the future and destiny of the universe:
God has said in Surah 21:104: The day when We will twist the sky like wrapping the pages of letters and books. And just as we started the creation the first time and expanded the "single", we return the universe to the "single" again. This is a promise that we will fulfill.
" يَوْمَ نَطْوِي السَّمَاء كَطَيِّ السِّجِلِّ لِلْكُتُبِ كَمَا بَدَأْنَا أَوَّلَ خَلْقٍ نُّعِيدُهُ وَعْدًا عَلَيْنَا إِنَّا كُنَّا فَاعِلِينَ"
God said this prophecy in the Qur'an in the seventh century. And in the last century, scientists have discovered it.
The signs of the Day of Resurrection, what great events will happen in the universe, God has said in the Qur'an in various verses.
The stars will die out and turn into cosmic black holes. All the heavenly bodies will shake. And they all become smooth. And they will return to the singularity like a thin thread through wormholes and space black holes. The sun goes out. and turns into a black hole. devours the solar system. The earth becomes extremely hot. The seas are on fire! And finally the earth will be swallowed by the black hole of the sun.
Science still cannot understand what will happen inside a black hole. The Qur'an says that the end of black holes is the singularity. That is, black holes are the link between the universe and the singularity. And it does not exist at that time. (Part of verses in Surahs 54-56-69-70-74-75-78-81-82-84-86)
It is impossible to understand these contents by science. This knowledge and power is only for God. The Qur'an is only the word of God. And it is unique. No one can claim to have said the Quran. Muhammad only received the Qur'an through the special and powerful energy and force of God's revelation (Gabriel). And he said it to the people according to the duty of his prophet. And the writers of the Qur'an, like Ali, wrote it. And now it is in our hands. Everyone just did their job. The speaker is only God. This statement has a completely scientific and historical reference. And it has been proven. Only unbelievers deny this truth. Without any reason or scientific and historical references!!
These Qur'anic verses tell only a part of the events of the Day of Judgment. Read the Quran to see the sea of ​​these beautiful scientific contents.
I have not fallen in love with the Qur'an for no reason. No matter how much I see and read these beautiful scientific materials in the Qur'an. I fall in love more. And I am always thirsty to read and understand the contents of the Qur'an. And I am proud to read the Quran.
If people follow the Qur'an. And if their approach is according to the Qur'an, the world will become paradise. Unfortunately, people and governments, especially Islamic governments, none of them act according to the Qur'an. The proof of my claim is wars - the destruction of human societies and human crimes. which exists all over the world. This is a fact that cannot be denied. I do not accept the approach of any government. And I reject all of them.

This is religious preaching ... This is not a Mosque. This is a website for honest discussion based upon genuine tested independent evidence.

And you have not ever produced any honest independently tested evidence for your religious beliefs of the fantastic & miraculous.

 

[Leumas]

Quranic prophecy for the future and destiny of the universe:
God has said in Surah 21:104: The day when We will twist the sky like wrapping the pages of letters and books. And just as we started the creation the first time and expanded the "single", we return the universe to the "single" again. This is a promise that we will fulfill.
" يَوْمَ نَطْوِي السَّمَاء كَطَيِّ السِّجِلِّ لِلْكُتُبِ كَمَا بَدَأْنَا أَوَّلَ خَلْقٍ نُّعِيدُهُ وَعْدًا عَلَيْنَا إِنَّا كُنَّا فَاعِلِينَ"
God said this prophecy in the Qur'an in the seventh century. And in the last century, scientists have discovered it..... <snip more hogwash>

The above is nothing more than mental gymnastics and language acrobatics and eisegesis legerdemain with much perfidy and relying on the target dupes not knowing better.

In other words unmitigated poppycock wrung out of arrantly derivative codswallop!!!

 

[IanS]

The word "سماء" means sky in some verses it means the same sky . The sky that we see from the ground with the naked eye. Without equipment like a telescope. But in some verses of the Qur'an, sky means the universe. These two meanings for the word sky are found in meanings and translations.
The word "لموسعون" means we have expanded. And it means expanding the single. Other meanings are from the 7th century. But the modern meaning of this word is this: we expanded the single.
Please be updated. The Quran is always up to date.

I don't think the Quran ever mentions the word “Universe”. And I don't think it actually ever says “Star” either!

In the Quran there is no concept of what a “universe" is or what a “star” is.

In the Quran the writer only ever talks about what people could see as a “sky” above their heads, plus something they believed to be a place called “heaven” where Allah lived with angels … that's all … there is no concept of any vastly greater deep-space containing all the things that make up our “universe” … there is no mention of any such thing as a galaxy for example … and no indication of space extending for billions of light years.

In the Quran, the description of what we now know as stars, was to claim they were “lamps” that were burning with a bright flame that people could see at night. God was said to have placed these lamps in the sky.

The two biggest “lamps” were what we call the Sun and the Moon, and they were both said to be burning with a strong light of their own. But of course we now know that the Moon has no such light of it's own (it's merely reflecting the light from the Sun. And of course the Sun is not “burning” in any sense of conventional flame-type combustion (what we see and feel from the light of the Sun is the result of nuclear fusion).

Also, AFAIK the Quran only ever describes the Sky as a visible layer nearest to the Earth, and it says the “stars”, i.e. the “lamps”, are all in that nearest layer of the sky just above the Earth. Above that sky, it says there are 7 layers of heaven. But what people could see as those lamps/lights in the sky are not of course in the sky just above the Earth … they are all more than about 6 trillion miles away! … whereas the furthest/highest clouds they could ever see are only about 7 miles above the Earth … and the furthest lamp-”star” that people could see in Mohamed's day was in fact about 16,000 light years from the Earth! (NOT just in the clouds 7 miles away).

 

[Leumas]

First of all, you do not know the rules of the Arabic language. Secondly, because of this, your understanding of Arabic words and sentences is wrong or incomplete.

No... yours is... as you yourself freely and clearly admit below!!!

Have you invited an Arabic language expert to explain it to you completely?

If I have to do that to understand the hoax better then it is proof that it is hoax already... QED!!!

Never. Because you are prejudiced
Third, you are completely wrong about the translation of Quranic phrases. Because first of all, you are not familiar with Quranic concepts.

The above claptrap is exactly what all snake oil salesmen say about their snake oil when confronted with its fakery.

Secondly, the translation and interpretations that you have read are related to the 7th century.

EXACTLY... the guy who fabricated the derivative codswallop wrote it in the 7th century... ergo... you have to use the 7th century meaning of the words the 7th century charlatan used in the 7th century to fabricate his 7th century hoax.... QED!!!

We only accept the meanings and translations of the main verses of the Qur'an from the 7th century until now.

..... EXACTLY... QED!!!

But the translation and interpretation of the similar verses of the Qur'an must be up to date. And we accept the updated translation and interpretation of these verses.

In other words you are contorting the words to mean whatever is convenient in order to alleviate the Cognitive Dissonance the words cause... I get it... thanks for admitting it.

And this is the correct way of translating and interpreting similar verses of the Qur'an. I have said this many times in my previous messages. But unfortunately, you repeat it again because of your prejudice. I'm sorry

Nope... it is not.... this means that my translation which is in line with the 7th century ORIGINAL MEANING and understanding is the correct one...

And that far from being correct.... your eisegesis and contortions and mental gymnastics and words legerdemain and sleight of translation to trick people into thinking the 7th century derivative codswallop is not a hoax is itself a 21st century grift and flimflam.

Thanks for proving me correct with your very own words...QED!!!

 

[Leumas]

The word "سماء" means sky in some verses it means the same sky . The sky that we see from the ground with the naked eye. Without equipment like a telescope. But in some verses of the Qur'an, sky means the universe. These two meanings for the word sky are found in meanings and translations.

Nope... you are completely wrong!!!

The word سماء cannot be HONESTLY or correctly translated to mean anything other than the ROOF or canopy above the earth erected by Allah and held up with invisible pillars and has windows that open to let water pour out and doors too that open to let people go to the ABODE of Allah (the other possible meaning) and the Angels above the DOME where the THRONE of Allah is and to which the sun goes to hide under during the night.

I suggest you read these verses without the modern day flimflam but rather as they meant in the 7th century when they were written down....

13:2, 21:32, 54:11, 2:19, 2:22, 6:99, 11:44, 8:11, 10:24, 78:19, 5:112, 6:6, 15:14​

Even your latest attempt 21:104... is proof against your modern day flimflam "translation"... how can the universe be ROLLED UP like one rolls up a SCROLL... but if one thinks the sky is a CANOPY then yes indeed one can see how the roof can be rolled up like a scroll.

 

[Leumas]

The word "لموسعون" means we have expanded.

No it does not... first... it is not one word... the letter (لَ) at the start is an Arabic grammatical prefix that connotes a meaning of emphasis and certainty.

Secondly... you have not used the diacritics to disambiguate the word that could mean many things without them....

Let me give you an example that would illustrate how CRUCIAL the diacritics are ....

Do you know what the word علم means???

You cannot know .... because with different diacritics it means utterly different things....

• عَلَمْ means banner or flag
• عِلْمْ means knowledge
• عَلَّمَ means teach
• عَلِمَ means he knew

And thus the word مُوسِع means capable or has the means.

And the last two letters (ونَ) are a grammatical postfix that connotes the first person plural

So the compound-word لَمُوسِعُونَ (La_musi'_oona لَ_مُوسِعُ_ونَ ) means "We certainly have the means (or ability)" ... or "We certainly are capable".

And thus the whole Ayah means

And the sky we built with hands and we certainly have the ability.​

Moreover, regardless of your modern day flimflam... the translation above is also in keeping with other verses where the same word مُوسِع is used and is translated to mean "having the means" and with other verses where Allah boasts and brags about building the sky with invisible pillars.... QED!!!

And it means expanding the single. Other meanings are from the 7th century. But the modern meaning of this word is this: we expanded the single.
Please be updated. The Quran is always up to date.

Yes... thanks for admitting it... the meaning which is the correct one is the one that was intended by the 7th century writer when he wrote his 7th century claptrap in the 7th century to a 7th century audience.

Moreover... this verse Q2:236 has the same word مُوسِع and is translated even today by the modern day charlatans to mean "has the means".

So no... you are decisively incorrect even by your own admission... QED!!!

• جُنَاحَ عَلَيْكُمْ إِنْ طَلَّقْتُمُ النِّسَاءَ مَا لَمْ تَمَسُّوهُنَّ أَوْ تَفْرِضُوا لَهُنَّ فَرِيضَةً ۚ وَمَتِّعُوهُنَّ عَلَى الْمُوسِع قَدَرُهُ وَعَلَى الْمُقْتِرِ قَدَرُهُ مَتَاعًا بِالْمَعْرُوفِ ۖ حَقًّا عَلَى الْمُحْسِنِينَ
• ^{[Yusuf Ali modern translation]}There is no blame on you if ye divorce women before consummation or the fixation of their dower; but bestow on them (A suitable gift), the wealthy according to his means, and the poor according to his means;- A gift of a reasonable amount is due from those who wish to do the right thing.

 

[IanS]

First of all, you do not know the rules of the Arabic language. Secondly, because of this, your understanding of Arabic words and sentences is wrong or incomplete. Have you invited an Arabic language expert to explain it to you completely? Never. Because you are prejudiced
Third, you are completely wrong about the translation of Quranic phrases. Because first of all, you are not familiar with Quranic concepts. Secondly, the translation and interpretations that you have read are related to the 7th century. We only accept the meanings and translations of the main verses of the Qur'an from the 7th century until now. But the translation and interpretation of the similar verses of the Qur'an must be up to date. And we accept the updated translation and interpretation of these verses. And this is the correct way of translating and interpreting similar verses of the Qur'an. I have said this many times in my previous messages. But unfortunately, you repeat it again because of your prejudice. I'm sorry

You are not an expert of translating 7th century copies of the Quran, either!

You actually told us much earlier in this thread what your qualifications are. And for that you told us that you have a degree in “Safety in Industry” from a university in Tehran.

Many hundreds of pages later you suddenly claimed to be a “professor of Islamic transalation”. And I asked you very directly about that as soon as you said it … and you refused to reply. That claim from you is a direct lie isn't it. You are simply yet another Islamic fanatic, one of very many on the internet, who is making false claims about academic qualifications that they either do not have, or else which are just invented worthless certificates from bogus colleges which give away stuff like that as piece of mere printed paper.

You have no credible honest meaningful or special independent academic qualifications in such translation of the Quran & hadiths or other such early writing.

Above I gave a link to debate in which an ex Muslim named “Apostate Prophet” (“AP”; real name Ridvan Aydemir) in which he debunks 60 of the most common claims of science in the Quran. After watching that YouTube film I looked at a number of his many other YouTube films with debates against Islamic preachers and Islamist activists who are making all the exact same claims that you Heydarian are making … one thing which stood out is that like you they also claim to have all sorts of qualifications in translating the Quran, and like you they claim that their oponnets are not qualified to argue agianst them … but like you, it turns out that their claimed qualifications are also completely bogus and fraudulent.

For example, in a debate against a Man calling himself Dr Abdul Majid (link below), when it got towards the end and they were taking questions from viewers, Dr Majid was asked what subject his doctorate was in & where did he get it from? … after some prevarication he eventually told us that his so-called “doctorate” was in “Islamic Banking”!! … and he told us himself that “it came from an institue in Saudi Arabia that was afterwards closed down for corruption”!!! … heres the link to that debate -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGtJ3vqedVM

… in another YouTube video AP took part in a debate against a well known Islamic Activist called “Mohamed Hijab”, who also claims to have all sorts of degrees and doctorates. Though none of it was checked, and I'd bet that like all the others his claimed qualifications are also either completely bogus or else worthless rubbish in a pathticaly silly subject from fraudulent colleges in places of dubious provenance … here is a link to AP discussing one of his interactions against Mohamed Hijab -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyraOSPI6X4

There is a very famous (famous amongst fundementalist I'jaz Muslims) Islamic author and internet preacher called Dr Zakir Naik, who claims to be a medical doctor, and who is someone that many fundementalist Muslims, inc. those like Heydarian who are insistently preaching about scientific miracles in the Quran, look up to & recommend to atheists and non Muslims as someone to guide them all for correct instruction in the truth of the Quran and its revelations of science ...In the link below AP discuses this guy, Dr Naik, and discusses the idiotic uneducated claims that he makes about such things as evolution where he (Dr Naik) actually makes the famously idiotic claim that if evlution is true then we should be seeing monkeys today giving birth to humans … and the point I am making there is that Dr Naik is yet another Islamic I'jaz fundemenatlist (just like Heydarian), a very famous one actually, who has authored many books on this claim of science in the Quran, and who is claiming to be an authority who disbelievers cannot argue against because he says he has a doctorate in medicene and is thereby some sort of “scientist” himself … and yet he is telling his gullible naïve Muslim followers that as a great expert he disproves human evolution by saying that monkeys do not give birth to humans … here is a film of AP discussing all of that from Dr Zakir Naik -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeOwpJuscDw

The overall point here is this – if you take the trouble to look at all these YouTube films of AP in disscusion with, or discussions about, various well known Islamic I'jaz preachers, such as those I've just named above, then you will see that they are making all the same claims that Heydarian is making, not just about science in the Quran but exactly the same even to the extent of claiming bogus academic qualifications, as well as almost always claiming that people who disagree with them are not qualified to disagree because they themselves are the only true experts in reading ancient Arabic Quranic texts. And if it comes to that, the similarity even extends to all of them, inc. as we see from Heydarian here, the insisttence of trying to drown out all disseneting voices by making replies that descend into huge long rambling speeches that jump about between numerous different claims as a way of deflecting from whatever actual point that is being put to them.

None of this would matter, if it were not for that fact that the beliefs & claims preached by I'jaz fanatics such as Heydarian's are actually lethally dangerous on a worldwide scale. And if you look at the videos in those links, and the various other videos of those same Islamic fundemenatlists, you can very easily see why it is unarguable that this sort of Islamic preaching is dangerous on all sorts of different levels (ie from simply misleading their own children into a cultrure of untrue beliefs in miracles & the supernatural, to the mistreatement of women as if they were lower value/class citizens etc., all the way up to promoting and facilitating violent Jihad such as we have seen so often from groups like ISIS and Al Qaeda.


Footnote – I am not endorsing everything that AP says in his videos. I am just drawing attention to the fact that he is quite prominent on the internet as an ex Muslim turned atheist who confronts fundamentalist I'jaz preachers like Heydarian and the others named above, to show why their claims in particular are untrue … that's all the claims that Heydarian has repeated here so often about science in the Quran, about calling himself an expert professor of such Islamic studies, about claiming that people here or anywhere else who disagree with him are not qualified to dispute what he says, about claiming credentials which he does not really have, about claiming that Islam is not really dangerous, about claiming that Allah will inflict terrible revenge on those who dispute the Quran and who speak against any existence of Allah, whilst simultaneously in their next breath claiming that Allah will not really torture apostates and non-believers in a burning hell etc. etc. etc.

 

[IanS]

And by the way Heydarian – you have not responded to any of the points that I put to you over the last few pages, not taken up my challenge of presenting just 1, 2 or 3 verses that we can debate in detail for your claims of science, and in particular you have not responded to the point that I just put to you about your claims of the Quran telling people in the 7th century that the Universe is expanding …

… where I just pointed out to you that what the Quran knew as the “sky” and “heaven”, which is the region that people could see with their eyes, is in fact NOT expanding! …

… none of the region that was described in the Quran is expanding! … in fact the region that the Quran describes, which is the only region that the Quran knew as existing, is actually collapsing together, not expanding …

… so what have you got to say about that?

…. why did you claim that was “expanding”?

… even your Quran does not really say the universe is “expanding … it actually only says that Allah had “spread out” or “extended” or “expanded” the sky as far as any eye could see …

… the Quran is only ever talking about the region that people could see as “the Sky” with a believed 7 layers of heaven where God lived.

... do you want to debate the actual verses? ... where Allah is said to be hurling "lamps" that are in the lowest "Sky"??