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Some people don't get it.

Absolutely. In engineering, they call that "backup systems," and the contract often specifies them as a necessary part of the work to be done.

Not to get into a semantic argument, but "redundant" in a grammatical context is usually used to mean "superfluous" while in an engineering/electronic context it means something quite different (eg "backup" or "duplicate", but necessary).

In grammar, "unnecessarily redundant" is redundant (and unnecessarily so :D).
 
It is in no way a victory for evolution, because evolution was irrelevant here. The class was not about evolution, it was about religion. It was a victory for the principle of separation of church and state.

Yes, exactly. The only people who think the fight is between ID and evolution are those promoting ID. It's a false dilemma; one necessary for their cause[1]. The real issue here is the promotion of religion in public schools and ID is a smoke screen to hide their real agenda. Talking about it as a victory for evolution gives more credibility to the ruse.

[1] They've got nothing else. The only way they can support ID as a valid theory is to pretend there's only two possibilities and attempt to prove the other one wrong.
 
I just thought. Isn't this gravy for us? An attempt has been made to teach "Intelligent Design". Now we know what "Intelligent Design" classes consist of. Now we know what teachers understand by "teaching Intelligent Design".
 
Actually we do have legal separation of church and state. But what we don't have a lot of, is religious fundamentalists or the obsession about the constitution that some Americans have. One seldom hears the dutch phrase for 'unconstitutional' for instance.
Well, that latter is because the Dutch constitution is not "the supreme Law of the Land" as it is in the US. Article 120 of the (current) Dutch constitution reads:
The constitutionality of Acts of Parliament and treaties shall not be reviewed by the courts.
The idea behind this was that the framers of the constitution couldn't anticipate developments in human society, and therefore a potentially outdated constitution should not be allowed to trump an Act of Parliament, thereby sidestepping the whole "Settled Law or Living Document?" question which plays such a prominent part in the US.

There are three categories of schools in the Netherlands: public, private (very rare) and religious. The latter are nominally private, but they receive government funding as a result of the Schoolkwestie (school question) back in the late 19th century, in which working class (hardline) Calvinists demanded the state provide them with the means to educate their children in the environment they wanted. It's a long story.

Ultimately, what it boils down to in the Dutch system is that, to complete your secondary education, you need to take a central written exam, the curriculum for which is set by the state. Aside from that, individual schools have a fair amount of autonomy in what they teach and how they teach it, as long as they prepare their students for that final exam. Here's the kicker: the state biology curriculum makes no mention of evolution. Most schools teach it anyway, but technically, no school is legally obliged to. This is because there's a sufficiently vocal core of hardline Calvinists that lobbied hard to keep evolution off the curriculum.

However, that's also why ID will never get off the ground in the Netherlands; the hardline Calvinists, and any other religious extremists, don't need the fig leaf of ID, since they can already teach Creationism outright and ignore evolution altogether. (Mind you, there's not many schools which do that. Back when I was still living in the Netherlands, I would often take the train between The Hague and Utrecht and be bemused by the presence of bunches of obviously Calvinist teenage girls. It took me a while to figure out that they had to travel halfway across the province to go to school.) Of course, in return for being left alone, they have to leave others alone as well. If the minister of education starts getting too earnest about putting ID on the curriculum, you can bet someone's going to say "sure; you won't mind us making the teaching of evolution mandatory as well then, will you?"

Oh, yeah, I'm Dutch by the way. I just live in the US.
 
Interesting stuff, Euromutt.
Some day I might actually understand the country I live in.
Here's the kicker: the state biology curriculum makes no mention of evolution. Most schools teach it anyway, but technically, no school is legally obliged to.
Hmm, now that you mention it, I don't think evolution was explicitly taught at my school, though I think it was mentioned here and there and sort of taken for granted.
I never thought about that because both my parents are biologists, so I didn't pay a lot of attention in biology class.
 
Once more: this is NOT about atheism, it's about SCIENCE!

Dammit, why don't they listen?

Because if they argue on grounds of science they know they'll lose. Although these constant battles don't show it, I do think in the minds of most people they generally equate science with good. Science put that pacemaker in their dad, science lets them talk to relatives overseas for almost nothing, science lets them drive over to another city quickly, etc.... Sure it's produced things like nuclear bombs too, but many people even consider those good in a defensive way.

On the other hand, atheism is associated with those godless communists. Everyone knows they're evil.

By lying about what their fighting against they hope to get people that like science, but don't like atheism on their side. And there are way more people with that attitude then the one that don't like science.
 
Hmm, now that you mention it, I don't think evolution was explicitly taught at my school, though I think it was mentioned here and there and sort of taken for granted.
I never thought about that because both my parents are biologists, so I didn't pay a lot of attention in biology class.

I went to a Jesuit catholic high school. I was taught evolution. Even in religious classes it was accepted as fact. Missouri at the time (I graduated in 1985 before the supreme court ruling on creationism) had a law mandating that creationism be discussed (not sure exactly what had to be covered). They showed us a video that talked about that dinosaur print with a man's print near by "proving" dinosaurs and man existed at the same time. Somebody else was saying scientists claims of the age of the univers of billions of years was bogus because god created the light between hear and there too so it only appears that light had been travelling for billions of years, etc....

This video was treated as a complete joke. We were explicitly told the only reason it was being shown was because it was mandated by Missouri law and that nothing from it would be on any tests.

Whenever I hear a proclomation from the Catholic church that actually makes scientific sense, I'm pretty sure the Jesuits are behind it somehow.
 
Interesting stuff, Euromutt.
Some day I might actually understand the country I live in.
Hmm, now that you mention it, I don't think evolution was explicitly taught at my school, though I think it was mentioned here and there and sort of taken for granted.
I never thought about that because both my parents are biologists, so I didn't pay a lot of attention in biology class.

I got an introduction to evolution in 3rd grade while living in Ft. Ord, CA. But that was because the teacher was very interested in marine biology. In the back of the classroom were jars of preserved sea critters, and one of the field trips was to a little museum near Cannery Row that would eventually turn into the Monterey Bay Aquarium. I vividly remember that field trip because we examined some chalk rock to see the tiny sea shells in them... and for this large glass speciman jar with a squid in it. I saw that same preserved squid almost 20 years later when I went through the Monterey Bay Aquarium, it had been part of "Doc's" collection (the same "Doc" from Steinbeck's book Cannery Row[/b]).

During 7th grade science in Bloomington, MN there was a whole section on evolution (no creationism at all). Unfortunately that was also the course that caused me to vow to never take biology again. It wasn't the teachers... it was the sadistic lab partner I had for the frog dissection. She even had fun blowing up the frog's lungs.

Even during confirmation classes at the Ft. Amador Post Chapel, the Protestant Chaplain of that year used historical context to interpret Bible passages. From showing that the verses were a way for the people to interpret what they saw, including using a reference book from his seminary to show the stories coincided with what had been learned from Babylonian writings and other archeological findings. But Protestan military chaplains should be less hard line than most other clergy. They share building and office space with the Catholic, Jewish and more recently Muslin chaplains. The only hardliner I met was the Army Major who volunteered to work with the teen group... he was Baptist and had the most incredible singing voice in the choir --- but when he wanted to talk about "cults" the first one he chose to disciss were the Baha'i. This is in an area with a large Baha'i population (http://www.panamabahai.net/ ). I did not think many of my Baha'i friends were in a cult, so I decided not to listen to that particular lesson.

By the way, I am always amused by blanket statements that say all of one country' schools do the same thing. As an Army brat I graduated from the 9th school district I attended. Some were very good (Panama Canal Zone, run by the Panama Canal Company which was a subsidiary of the US Army Corps of Engineers, after I left became a Dept. of Defense school district) to pretty poor (Westin, MO... where it was a "Rural School", where I basically did nothing since it was a rehash of my 3rd grade the year before, and my brother's French teacher was paying off her college tuition grant to the state by teacher in this little town... which is now a suburb of Kansas City)... and all sorts inbetween. Including some schools where one teacher was very good --- like Portland Jr. High in Bloomington, MN --- where the science teacher team was great, as was the math program... but the art teacher and the English teacher were not so great.... OR the absolutely horrible geography teacher I had in Curundu Jr. High in Panama.
 
(Westin, MO... where it was a "Rural School", where I basically did nothing since it was a rehash of my 3rd grade the year before, and my brother's French teacher was paying off her college tuition grant to the state by teacher in this little town... which is now a suburb of Kansas City)

not quite a suburb of KC yet, but darn close (assuming you mean Weston, Missouri). I grew up in Parkville Mo, just south of Weston, which was just barely a suburb of KC then (across the street from our house was cow pasture). I went to catholic schools but the public schools in parkville area were considered pretty good. The whole county is now becoming very rich with many huge houses being built. Don't know if that has worked into Weston to improve the schools though.
 
not quite a suburb of KC yet, but darn close (assuming you mean Weston, Missouri). I....

The Town That Time Forgot ... and should have kept it that way!

Home of the only legal distillary in the state, McCormick Distillery. Largest tabacco growing area West of the Mississippi... and where they grew hemp during WWII (so there was a strange weed growing near the back fence)... PLUS, between it and Leavenworth, KS and Ft. Leavenworth (where my father was attending the Command and General Staff College) were prison farms... some of them for the 3 or 4 prisons across the state line (including a Federal Prison).

Fun place. :p

Oh, and now it has a ski resort: http://www.skisnowcreek.com/
 
Oh they have plenty more targets to go after.... Do you know some women believe that they do not need to obey their husbands! :eek:

So, Darat- Who obeys whom chez vous?

Clearly the fundies have it right- you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. :D
 

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