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Jewish advocate wants Perth trader in 'Nazi' memorabilia closed down

Skeptical Greg said:
Sticks and stones..
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Well thankfully that doesn't apply where I live. Hate speech crimes are prosecuted here, but not often as people are usually not that stupid.

And you would have noted earlier in this thread, swastikas are prohibited from display in Australia's two largest states.
 
TragicMonkey said:
But isn't the problem there one of usage of an object? Three people purchase one genuine Nazi rally flag each. One puts it in his museum of European history. One makes it into a quilt for her guest bedroom. One puts it up at his next neo-Nazi rally. Same object, three different outcomes.
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Funnily enough, if I had to judge those people I'd find quilt person to be the most concerning. What dark thoughts are going on in that person's brain to make them think that a rally flag would be perfect to turn into a quilt for guests.

Dani said:
That's a different thing, and yes, social taboos are shortcuts we create because I'm afraid there's no such thing as collective critical thinking, and as a society we tend to set the bar at the lowest common denominator, so that everyone gets it and the world is, let's say, easy to navigate for the less nuanced minds, but also for those who would be affected by the type of actions and behaviors we tend to censor.

Through social taboos, people aren't required to think why something is morally questionable, they just need to know it is a bad thing to do.

The tradeoff is that you tend to get knee-jerk reactions at the expense of the nuance and all that comes with it.
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And what we're seeing here is a clash between social taboos, one that says that it's ok to buy and sell Nazi memorabilia and those that think that it's wrong to do so.
 
Wildy said:
And what we're seeing here is a clash between social taboos, one that says that it's ok to buy and sell Nazi memorabilia and those that think that it's wrong to do so.
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It could also be described as a clash between those who want to micro manage others and those who believe that we should mind our own business.
 
Wildy said:
Funnily enough, if I had to judge those people I'd find quilt person to be the most concerning. What dark thoughts are going on in that person's brain to make them think that a rally flag would be perfect to turn into a quilt for guests.
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Perhaps she just wants to discourage long visits.
 
arthwollipot said:
If I enjoy building, painting and displaying miniature models of WW2 aircraft, should I avoid modelling the aircraft of the Luftwaffe?
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I think context is a necessary element for judgment in this sort of thing. If a tour group of ISFers visits your gracious home and sees your bedroom ceiling is full of WWII airplanes from both sides we will conclude that you are a geek and into WWII. If however your bedroom ceiling is full of just German airplanes we may conclude you are a geek and into WWII and also possibly a Nazi sympathizer.
 
smartcooky said:
Owning a piece of ww2 memorabilia causes harm to no-one!
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If my family had suffered during the Holocaust I’m certain I would be harmed if I saw a swastika in your house. Which, again, is why it can’t be displayed in NSW and Victoria.
 
smartcooky said:
You should be OK, so long as you make them inauthentic by not using any of the symbols of hate (so no swastikas on the vertical stabilizers those bf109s and bf110s).

Then you won't risk hurting anyone's feelings.
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It's a real issue; very few kits of WW2 German aircraft include the swastika on the tail among the transfers[1], largely because doing so makes them illegal to display in Germany, so modellers have the choice of either making an inaccurate model or buying a sheet of swastikas. My preference is the latter, because building models and not including the swastika has something of the myth of the clean Wermacht about it, but I don't then display them where members of the public can see them.

With one exception; the group I'm in at the model railway club has built a layout set in the East End in 1940. Front and centre of the layout is the local synagogue, and at the moment, passing in front of it, is an RAF Queen Mary transporter carrying the shot down wreck of a Bf109, complete with swastika on the tail. I have yet to be told that it's pro-Nazi to portray the burned and blackened wreck of a Nazi plane passing by an undamaged synagogue, but I suspect it's only a matter of time.

Dave

[1] There are some workarounds; some kits include two transfers that, when applied together, make up a swastika.
 
Dave Rogers said:
With one exception; the group I'm in at the model railway club has built a layout set in the East End in 1940. Front and centre of the layout is the local synagogue, and at the moment, passing in front of it, is an RAF Queen Mary transporter carrying the shot down wreck of a Bf109, complete with swastika on the tail. I have yet to be told that it's pro-Nazi to portray the burned and blackened wreck of a Nazi plane passing by an undamaged synagogue, but I suspect it's only a matter of time.
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I do see some symbolism present in that set up.
 
Dave Rogers said:
It's a real issue; very few kits of WW2 German aircraft include the swastika on the tail among the transfers[1], largely because doing so makes them illegal to display in Germany, so modellers have the choice of either making an inaccurate model or buying a sheet of swastikas. My preference is the latter, because building models and not including the swastika has something of the myth of the clean Wermacht about it, but I don't then display them where members of the public can see them.

With one exception; the group I'm in at the model railway club has built a layout set in the East End in 1940. Front and centre of the layout is the local synagogue, and at the moment, passing in front of it, is an RAF Queen Mary transporter carrying the shot down wreck of a Bf109, complete with swastika on the tail. I have yet to be told that it's pro-Nazi to portray the burned and blackened wreck of a Nazi plane passing by an undamaged synagogue, but I suspect it's only a matter of time.

Dave

[1] There are some workarounds; some kits include two transfers that, when applied together, make up a swastika.
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Yup, I'm aware of that. Even back in the 1960's I had a model an FW190 that had a black diamond on the tail in place of the swastika.

However, it seems Hasagawa didn't get the memo!

HasegawaFW190.jpg
 
smartcooky said:
On the tail of a model of an authentic bf 109? I mean seriously?
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I think so. But how about asking families of Holocaust survivors? They are those (amongst others who suffered Nazi atrocities) who decide what is hateful and what isn’t. Not model builders upset they shouldn’t use the most hateful symbol of the last century.
 
lionking said:
I think so. But how about asking families of Holocaust survivors? They are those (amongst others who suffered Nazi atrocities) who decide what is hateful and what isn’t. Not model builders upset they shouldn’t use the most hateful symbol of the last century.
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Non sequitur. We're not talking about public display here.

I have a number of classic books by well known authors on my lounge library shelves, among them, The Holcroft Covenant (Robert Ludlum), The Odessa File (Frederick Forsyth) and SS-GB (Len Deighton). All three feature swastikas and/or SS runes on their covers and binder.

I must remember to hide them away next time my Jewish friends come to visit. :rolleyes:
 
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lionking said:
Not model builders upset they shouldn’t use the most hateful symbol of the last century.
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Use, or display? I keep my models where they won't be seen by casual visitors or people passing outside my house. And if models are intended, say, for a museum display, where the purpose is clearly educational, is it better to mis-educate by pretending the Luftwaffe was a completely different organisation that had nothing whatsoever to do with the Nazi party?

Controlling the use of hateful symbolism is one thing. Deliberately erasing history is another, and it's important not to get the two confused.

Dave
 
Dave Rogers said:
Use, or display? I keep my models where they won't be seen by casual visitors or people passing outside my house. And if models are intended, say, for a museum display, where the purpose is clearly educational, is it better to mis-educate by pretending the Luftwaffe was a completely different organisation that had nothing whatsoever to do with the Nazi party?

Controlling the use of hateful symbolism is one thing. Deliberately erasing history is another, and it's important not to get the two confused.

Dave
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Sorry, I don’t agree. History is source documents, photographs, books and documentaries. Not models or flags with swastikas on them.

Look I’m not saying what you are doing illegal or evil stuff. Just distasteful in my opinion. I might do things distasteful to you. That’s the way the world works.
 
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lionking said:
Sorry, I don’t agree. History is source documents, photographs, books and documentaries. Not models or flags with swastikas on them.

Look I’m not saying what you are doing illegal or evil stuff. Just distasteful in my opinion. I might do things distasteful to you. That’s the way the world works.
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Horse, water and drink.

We should strive to educate people about the horrors of what the Nazis did any way we can, and if that means authenticity as regards imagery... so . be . it!
 
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