Jewish advocate wants Perth trader in 'Nazi' memorabilia closed down

[Vixen]

Its not a matter of taking sides, its a matter of freedom. EVERY group of people contains sub-groups that are unsavory, dishonest or scumbags - among policemen there are honest cops and corrupt cops; among politicians there are good politicians and bad politicians; among sports people there are fair ones and there are cheats. We may not like it but that is the way life sucks sometimes.

It is not only grossly unfair to judge a whole group by the actions of the minority-worst of them, its is completely unacceptable; its tarring them all with the same brush. When you do that, you are doing EXACTLY what racists do, judging all black people by the behavior and actions of a small group of them; you are doing exactly what Islamophobes do, judging all members of that religion by the actions of a few terrorists. When you do this, you become the exact thing you are railing against!

Be that as it may. What if something harms or hurts other people? For example, say your neighbours are into naturism. Fine. All good and dandy if they stick to their hobby in their own home and garden. However, if you are walking down the street with your kid and they are strolling along in their birthday suits, is it not perfectly reasonable to say, sorry but can you keep your hobby to yourselves and not on public view?

The other side of the coin (so to speak) is that having openness, you know exactly who these people are. Churchill said, if you take away a free market, you have a black market. At least Blewitt knows who his customers are and presumably they pay by verified bank or card details.

 

[Vixen]

There is of course a strong case for preserving artifacts, even those of regimes such as the Nazis as a matter of creating an accurate historic record. We do allow people to privately own the most appalling things - items from serial killers come to mind, so we probably shouldn't be looking at making a special case for Nazi artifacts simply because they were evil.

I do think, unlike a lot of the more unsavoury artifacts private collectors horde, Nazi artifacts pose a current risk to citizens in that they can be used to promote Nazism (they aren't required for promotion of Nazism and of course not all collectors of nazi artifacts want to promote Nazism) and Nazism is still a very dangerous ideology that as part of its tenets wants to kill millions of my fellow citizens.

I do think I would carve out one exception for nazi artifacts and that is not allowing replicas to be made and sold to the public (allowing for exceptions for the likes of museums, and other spaces where historical verisimilitude is required).

I was quite surprised that when looking for a particular Finnish war medal, I came across a business operating out of the back of King's Cross who provide precisely this: they don't sell originals, they sell replicas! These are far cheaper than original auction items (which can cost hundreds or even thousands) but yet make a healthy profit at about £60 per item. I ordered one officers medal out of curiosity (white Finnish 'swastika' against with enamel). I could immediately see it was rather cheap looking (too shiny) and the insignia was soldered to the back with studs, whereas the originals would have been minted properly. From their web page they do seem to do a lot of custom on the Third Reich genre.

You make a good point about nazist ideology. Lest we forget one of Hitler's fascinations which he picked up from mastermind Himmler was the concept of folk history, a powerful attraction to rationalise seeing oneself as belonging (blood and soil) and others as being alien and not belonging. It is a short step to hatred and elimination. The Nazis were deeply into the occult and this is one reason it fascinates the so-called New Age Radical Right; the kind of folk mysticism of paganism, wicca and all sorts of magical stuff woven together of a mystical past. On one level it is harmless, on another, it sucks the vulnerable into a vortex which makes it acceptable for them to act out dark fantasies of the neo-nazi type, such as the Soho nail bomber or the raging nutter who killed MP Jo Cox because she was pro-EU.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Be that as it may. What if something harms or hurts other people? For example, say your neighbours are into naturism. Fine. All good and dandy if they stick to their hobby in their own home and garden. However, if you are walking down the street with your kid and they are strolling along in their birthday suits, is it not perfectly reasonable to say, sorry but can you keep your hobby to yourselves and not on public view?

The other side of the coin (so to speak) is that having openness, you know exactly who these people are. Churchill said, if you take away a free market, you have a black market. At least Blewitt knows who his customers are and presumably they pay by verified bank or card details.

What is the analogy to collecting Nazi memorabilia?

 

[Vixen]

What is the analogy to collecting Nazi memorabilia?

People still hurting from the trauma of the Holocaust - and trauma can cross generations - say they are deeply upset by the open sale of such memorabilia. See OP.

Imagine if someone in Ukraine was to set up a shop selling 'Z'- t-shirts, he would soon be made to close down, no?

 

[Skeptical Greg]

I don't know.

Let's outlaw swimming pools. Countless people have lost children to drowning, and they suffer everytime they are forced to walk by a swimming pool..

 

[theprestige]

Imagine if someone in Ukraine was to set up a shop selling 'Z'- t-shirts, he would soon be made to close down, no?

Of course he'd be closed down. He's promoting the enemy during an active war, in the actual war zone. But I bet after the war, Ukraine is going to see a brisk trade in Russian military belt buckles, unit patches, uniforms, gear, and other memorabilia.

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The idea that you shouldn't sell Nazi memorabilia because you never know when your customer might be a crypto-Nazi is stupid.

And the solution to trauma is treatment, not forcing everyone else to avoid anything that might trigger you.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I'm collecting nonsensical, hyperbolic responses based on lies and faux outrage.............

What lies those are things that are collected. Anatomical supply shops at least used to sell human skeletons to med students for example.

Here is a group collecting books bound in human skin.

https://anthropodermicbooks.org/

There are a lot of body parts out there as collectibles and so why should they be forbidden compared to nazi memorabilia?

 

[TragicMonkey]

I don't know.

Let's outlaw swimming pools. Countless people have lost children to drowning, and they suffer everytime they are forced to walk by a swimming pool..

Don't most places require permits for the building of swimming pools? There are also safety regulations that apply in many places, with regards to fencing and signage and access. Swimming pools are not unrestricted, unregulated, or unexamined.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Don't most places require permits for the building of swimming pools? There are also safety regulations that apply in many places, with regards to fencing and signage and access. Swimming pools are not unrestricted, unregulated, or unexamined.

Yes, but what does that do to mitigate the trauma of those who have suffered because of swimming pools and are forced to view them? A total ban is the only answer..

 

[ponderingturtle]

I think the distinction between being a collector of WWII memorabilia or some other category and having nazi examples in your collection vs collecting specifically nazi memorabilia is useful.

 

[trustbutverify]

I don't know.

Let's outlaw swimming pools. Countless people have lost children to drowning, and they suffer everytime they are forced to walk by a swimming pool..

The real victims here are the KKK memorabilia collectors/historical caretakers. So misunderstood.

 

[Vixen]

I don't know.

Let's outlaw swimming pools. Countless people have lost children to drowning, and they suffer everytime they are forced to walk by a swimming pool..

A swimming pool is a very silly analogy. A swimming pool did not inflict Swimming Pool Supremacy onto anyone. It did not chase non-swimming pools and drag them under water nor ship them off to doggy paddle ponds, forcibly holding their heads under water. A swimming pool is an inanimate object. It has no emotions, no will, no intelligence, no motive, no politics. A swimming pool was never found culpable of killing anyone. Children drown because of a lapse in supervision by an adult.

 

[Vixen]

Of course he'd be closed down. He's promoting the enemy during an active war, in the actual war zone. But I bet after the war, Ukraine is going to see a brisk trade in Russian military belt buckles, unit patches, uniforms, gear, and other memorabilia.

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The idea that you shouldn't sell Nazi memorabilia because you never know when your customer might be a crypto-Nazi is stupid.

And the solution to trauma is treatment, not forcing everyone else to avoid anything that might trigger you.

So are you saying the victims of Nazis should seek treatment for their trauma but the purveyors of that trauma should just carry on?

 

[Dani]

I'm ok with anything that is not engaging in proselitism of a nazi agenda. Memorabilia, per se, is not that.

 

[smartcooky]

I think the distinction between being a collector of WWII memorabilia or some other category and having nazi examples in your collection vs collecting specifically nazi memorabilia is useful.

I disagree - IMO there is no distinction - either items bear the nazi symbols of hate (runes, swastika, totentopf) or they don't. There is no nuanced grey area/middle ground here.

I'll give you an example... this WW2 Leica camera...

Would you ban it from sale/being collected?

 

[smartcooky]

So are you saying the victims of Nazis should seek treatment for their trauma but the purveyors of that trauma should just carry on?

If that is your takeaway from what theprestige said then you either didn't read his post properly, or you need English comprehension lessons.

If its neither, then you are intentionally misrepresenting or mischaracterizing what he said.

 

[Myriad]

The victims of Nazis should seek treatment for their trauma but the purveyors of that trauma should just carry on?

The victims of Nazis should seek treatment for the geriatric health problems inherent in extreme old age.

People who weren't born when the Nazis were defeated but nonetheless define themselves as victims traumatized by Nazis should seek treatment for their trauma.

 

[Vixen]

The victims of Nazis should seek treatment for the geriatric health problems inherent in extreme old age.

People who weren't born when the Nazis were defeated but nonetheless define themselves as victims traumatized by Nazis should seek treatment for their trauma.

People who are very much alive and not at all 'in extreme old age' do remember their grandparents, even if they are now deceased.

If SmartCooky's friend can have feelings about his maternal grandparents receiving the Iron Cross and the Africa Campaign, then how is it contemptible for the victims of those medal winners to feel any trauma? They should 'get treatment' as though they are lunatics?

 

[ponderingturtle]

I disagree - IMO there is no distinction - either items bear the nazi symbols of hate (runes, swastika, totentopf) or they don't. There is no nuanced grey area/middle ground here.

Yep clearly no difference between a camera and a human skull taken as a trophy. They all should be viewed as harmless collectibles.

 

[TragicMonkey]

I'm ok with anything that is not engaging in proselitism of a nazi agenda. Memorabilia, per se, is not that.

But isn't the problem there one of usage of an object? Three people purchase one genuine Nazi rally flag each. One puts it in his museum of European history. One makes it into a quilt for her guest bedroom. One puts it up at his next neo-Nazi rally. Same object, three different outcomes.