The Bible is a Human Artifice!!!

[psionl0]

Do you agree that it is irrational to say that a work of fiction that you agree is a work of fiction needs to be proven as not having been written by an omnipotent deity that you agree does not exist and that it is irrational to think there is one??

If your claim is that the bible could not have been written by an "omnipotent deity" because no such deity exists then this thread would have just one post - yours.

 

[Leumas]

If your claim is that the bible could not have been written by an "omnipotent deity" because no such deity exists then this thread would have just one post - yours.

Strawmanning... read the OP.... that is not what I said ... READ THE OP...

But... do you believe this deity exists or not???

If you do ... then this OP is for you ... because it proves that this deity did not write the bible.

If you do not... then do not bother as you said... because it is quite irrational to think that a nonextant fictive character one of the protagonists and participants in war crimes in the gruesome work of fictive tall tales and flimflam called the Bible... is the one who wrote the bible.

But I am not the one who is saying that... READ THE OP.

 

[psionl0]

Strawmanning... read the OP.... that is not what I said ... READ THE OP...

Of course it isn't. That's why there are so many posts in this thread. Most of your posts consist of making an obscure post then repeating umpteen times in subsequent posts "READ THIS POST".

If your argument is, "assuming there is an omnipotent deity then that deity could not have written the bible because the words in the bible say so" then you have not made your case because you blow up every time someone asks you where those words are.

 

[Craig4]

It is clear to me that you have yet again not read HIS post.... what it says rives your above claims to dust...

Here read it ...



You said that believing in gods is irrational....

GREAT!!!.... so do you agree that it is irrational to say that a work of fiction that you agree is a work of fiction needs to be proven as not having been written by an omnipotent deity.... or not??? Or any other work of anything for that matter... no??

And you agree that not believing in a god has a profound bearing on the question of whether or not a work of fiction was written by any gods... right???

And so it is irrational to claim that belief or not in a god has no bearing on whether a god wrote a work of fiction or not... right???







I think you need to reflect on that statement a little longer... because it is

Can I get you some hair gel? I think you need it considering how fast this argument is flying right over your head.

Saying that you made an argument for the bible being of supernatural origin is not the same as someone believing the bible is of supernatural origin.

It's not your place to decide what Jack or anyone else believes.

 

[Leumas]

<clip irrelevant claptrap>
If your argument is, "assuming there is an omnipotent deity then that deity could not have written the bible because the words in the bible say so" then you have not made your case because you blow up every time someone asks you where those words are.

You are still strawmanning... again... that is not my argument... again... go read the OP and you will be able to read what my argument is instead of you strawmanning it.

I will be waiting.... one day you will read the OP and see what it says ... I hope.


Hint: read the OP and also read this post... too... it rives your other assertion to dust.... but maybe you might be better off to read this one instead...

​

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Let me see if maybe you can reason this better if gods were not involved....

Defense Lawyer: Your honor... there is no butler... there never was a butler

Prosecution: Your honor... we all agree that there is no butler... but your honor... my learned colleague has not proven that the butler has not done it... your honor there is a difference in knowing that there is no butler and saying that the butler did not do it... the defense still needs to prove that the butler did not do it... but indeed... we all agree that there was no butler.... but that is not the same as proving that the butler did not do the crime.

Jury and Judge:

Your analogy fails because you are positing a case where all sides agree the butler did not exist so the question of whether he can be proven innocent does not arise.

If readers here do not believe Gods exist that does not establish your claim to have proven no God authored the bible. That claim has to stand on its own merits, not on whether other people also happen to believe it to be so. There are plenty of people who believe the opposite. Show everyone your proof.

Even if your language anomaly argument is true, you have only made a case that the bible was not authored by a particular type of God who is incapable of lying.

 

[psionl0]

Of course it isn't. That's why there are so many posts in this thread. Most of your posts consist of making an obscure post then repeating umpteen times in subsequent posts "READ THIS POST"

You are still strawmanning... again... that is not my argument... again... go read the OP and you will be able to read what my argument is instead of you strawmanning it.

Q.E.D.

 

[Leumas]

<clip ad hominem>

Saying that you made an argument for the bible being of supernatural origin is not the same as someone believing the bible is of supernatural origin.

It's not your place to decide what Jack or anyone else believes.

Who said that???

I think that.. yet again... you have not been reading things properly.... here have a look

That would appear to be a case for the bible being a work of fiction, as I think almost everyone here would agree, but can you explain which part shows that the fiction could not have been authored by an omnipotent deity?

If you read it carefully you will notice that he is NOT saying what you said he said in the above post of yours....

What he is saying is

• that he avers and avows ... as do almost all of the "us" on whose behalf he presumes to speak... that the bible is a work of fiction.
  
• that despite the bible being a fictional work ... I have NOT ... notice the NOT here... I have not shown the part of that fictional work that shows that the work of fiction has not been written by an "omnipotent deity"
  
• You said that believing in Gods is irrational.
  
• He won't even say whether he does or not in fact think "omipotent deities" exist or not
  
• He maintains that it does not matter if he believes in a god or not ... a god could have written the book of fiction about another god called YHWH writing the book of fiction ... like Conan Doyle wrote Dr. Watson as the one writing the Adventures of Sherlock Holmes.
  
• but Conan Doyle was a real flesh and blood human who existed... so is this "omnipotent deity" also real or not???
  
• And this TRICKSTER omnipotent deity still could have used the language of the Canaanites and the flawed incomplete abjad of the Arameans despite this script not having been invented yet for 600 more years from the time this TRICKSTER FICTION WRITING omnipotent deity fingered down his work of tall tales.

And you already said.... that this is irrational... remember...

You do know that most people here are athiests, agnostic or "none" right? The vast majority of people here believe the bibles in their various incarnations are works of fiction (with the odd smattering of accurate history occasionally popping up).

GREAT!!!... now... do you also believe that this work of fiction was written by one of the characters in the work of fiction ... namely YHWH???

Or do you believe like the above that YHWH was a pseudonym for Loki??

Do you really not see how irrational it is to say that the bible is a work of fiction but it is written by an omnipotent deity???

Obviously that's irrational. Believing in a deities omnipotent or not is also irrational. Why the angst here? It's a bit of a Blinding Flash of the Obvious (BFO).

So have you now changed your mind???

It's not your place to decide what Jack or anyone else believes.

No it is not... but what they believe is RELEVANT to the argument that "an omnipotent deity" wrote the fictional tome called the bible OR NOT....

And I tried to explain that to you with this....

Let me see if maybe you can reason this better if gods were not involved....

Defense Lawyer: Your honor... there is no butler... there never was a butler

Prosecution: Your honor... we all agree that there is no butler... but your honor... my learned colleague has not proven that the butler has not done it... your honor there is a difference in knowing that there is no butler and saying that the butler did not do it... the defense still needs to prove that the butler did not do it... but indeed... we all agree that there was no butler.... but that is not the same as proving that the butler did not do the crime.

Jury and Judge:

Do you see how irrational it is to ask for proof that the Butler did not do it... when you cannot even decide whether the butler exists or not???

Do you not think it is rational to demand that the defense lawyer prove that the butler did not do it???

Doesn't the Prosecution have to prove that the butler EXISTS first and that he did it ... not the Defense DISPROVING that the NONEXISTENT butler DID NOT do it???

Is the above not an irrationality???

Do you agree that it is irrational to say that a work of fiction that you agree is a work of fiction needs to be proven as not having been written by an omnipotent deity that you agree does not exist and that it is irrational to think there is one??

And do you agree that not believing in a god has a profound bearing on the question of whether or not a work of fiction was written by any gods... right???

Do you not think it is irrational to claim that belief or not in a god has no bearing on whether a god wrote a work of fiction or not???


Do you think that YHWH ... is an omnipotent deity??? ... who chose to write a work of fiction in the language of the people whom in that fictive work he loathed and wanted to genocide and he wrote himself into that work of fiction as having tried and failed to do so because they had iron chariots???

And to boot... he wrote down his fictive fabrications in the flawed and incomplete script of yet another people he depicted himself in the fairy tales as hating as the enemies of his WIFE and said script would not yet be invented for another 600 years from the time the tall tales he devised are said to be taking place.

Or do you believe like the above that YHWH was a pseudonym for Loki??






.

 

[Leumas]

Your analogy fails because you are positing a case where all sides agree the butler did not exist so the question of whether he can be proven innocent does not arise.

Do you know what Burden Of Proof is???

Do you not see how irrational it is to ask for proof that the Butler did not do it... when you cannot even decide whether the butler exists or not???

Do you not think it is irrational to demand that the defense lawyer prove that the butler did not do it???

EVEN IF he does exist but no one can prove he does??? You still have to prove HE DID it... not that he DID NOT do it.

The Prosecution have to prove that the butler EXISTS first and that he did it ... not the Defense DISPROVING that the NONEXISTENT butler DID NOT do it???

If readers here do not believe Gods exist that does not establish your claim to have proven no God authored the bible.

Even if the butler is a flesh and bones person standing in the court ... the BURDEN OF PROOF is on the person saying he did it ... not the person saying no he did not.

Now... habeas corpus... I suggest you produce your "omnipotent deity" FIRST ... then prove he wrote the Bible.

That claim has to stand on its own merits, not on whether other people also happen to believe it to be so. There are plenty of people who believe the opposite. Show everyone your proof.

You have your logic all the wrong way round.... I suggest you learn about BURDEN OF PROOF... and LOGIC....

Even if your language anomaly argument is true, you have only made a case that the bible was not authored by a particular type of God who is incapable of lying.

How many gods do you have?

I suggest you examine the LOGIC of the above statement....

There are plenty of people who believe the opposite. Show everyone your proof.

Yes... but those people are not Atheists who aver and avow that the bible is a work of fiction ... they aver and avow that the bible was written by YHWH as the bible itself says it was ... no???

So when ... as you said....

That would appear to be a case for the bible being a work of fiction,

And those people believe it is not... then QED!!!

And you yourself admitted it ....

That would appear to be a case for the bible being a work of fiction, as I think almost everyone here would agree, ....

So ... now if you believe in an "omnipotent deity" who writes works of fiction claiming in the work of fiction that he wrote the work of fiction despite the proof that you have just accepted is proof for the work being fiction... then I am sure you will find that not many believers in this "omnipotent deity" agree that he is such a lying TRICKSTER god.

 

[Leumas]

Q.E.D.

QED what... that you keep strawmanning me out of not having read what I wrote and keep on repeating the strawmanning despite me telling you that it is not what I said and all you have to do is read what I actually wrote down to see that all you are doing is strawmanning relentlessly???

Well then QED indeed on that... thanks for agreeing!!!


Now... I asked you several times... do you agree that the Bible is a work of fiction... why won't you answer???

If you agree that it is a work of fiction... do you agree that YHWH wrote it despite it being a work of fiction... or do you think maybe the DEVIL wrote it pretending to be YHWH???

Can you please respond... I asked you many times ... but you keep wafting red herrings instead.... not to mention the strawmanning.

So please answer... do you agree that the Bible is a work of fiction ... do you think YHWH wrote it or not??? Do you think YHWH exists or not???

If you believe that YHWH is real ... and that he wrote the bible ... then this thread is for you... because it proves the YHWH did not write the bible...whether he exists or not ... he did not write the Bible... if of course the depiction of YHWH in the bible is true... which if you believe that YHWH is the writer of the true bible, then it is.

Get that...

If you believe the Bile it true and YHWH is true... then the bible lied and YHW did not write the bible.... unless he is a liar and a trickster god... i.e. the DEVIL.... do you accept that YHWH is the devil???

 

[Leumas]

Even if your language anomaly argument is true, you have only made a case that the bible was not authored by a particular type of God who is incapable of lying.

As an atheist... I do not believe in the Devil....

But can you prove that the DEVIL did not write the Bible???

I can prove that the DEVIL was in cahoots with Jesus according to the New Tall tales ... so maybe the Devil... who is a major character in the NT... learned Koine Greek and wrote down the NT pretending to be Paul et al writing down the stuff like he pretended to be YHWH writing down the stuff....

Can you prove that Devil did not write the Bible as well as the New Tall tales as his second work of fiction???

 

[Steve]

Wonderful.... I agree.... so now ...

So now the entire thread becomes redundant. Religious literature was written by humans. End of discussion.

 

[Craig4]

There's a difference between saying "Prove to me the bible is of supernatural origin" and saying, "I proved the bible was not of supernatural origin". The burdens of proof are exchanged. It's a fool's errand to say "I proved the bible is not of supernatural origin" as much as it is saying, "I proved the bible is of supernatural origin".

One does not need to believe the bible is of supernatural origin to point out that you did not prove the bible is not of supernatural origin.

 

[Leumas]

So now the entire thread becomes redundant. Religious literature was written by humans. End of discussion.

Good.... so now go and find something else to do... I made this thread for ones who believe the Bible is written by the finger of YHWH and still do believe it and also believe YHWH is real.

So this thread is ... as you said... pointless FOR YOU ... so don't bother then... why are you even bothering???

Do you think everyone in the world thinks like you???

Here are a few who would disagree with you vehemently... this thread is for them and their ilk...

• Watch this guy...
  
• And this guy...
  
• And this guy...
  
• And this guy...
  
• And this guy...

 

[Craig4]

Good.... so now go and find something else to do... I made this thread for ones who believe the Bible is written by the finger of YHWH and still do believe it and also believe YHWH is real.

So this thread is ... as you said... pointless FOR YOU ... so don't bother then... why are you even bothering???

Do you think everyone in the world thinks like you???

Here are a few who would disagree with you vehemently... this thread is for them and their ilk...

Why would you do that here? I can only think of a couple of people here who MAY believe that (and I don't know what they believe so I won't speak for them). Even the guy who you say believes the bible is of supernatural origin doesn't. If you only want to engage with people who believe the bible was written by a god, you'd be pretty bored.

 

[Leumas]

<snip illogical fallacies>

One does not need to believe the bible is of supernatural origin to point out that you did not prove the bible is not of supernatural origin.

OK.... so now that you say that I have not proven that YHWH is not the writer.... then you have to show me how YHWH exists and how it is him who wrote the bible... or maybe you think it is Loki or Quetzalcoatl ... which is it....

If you cannot do that... then what??? You just want to keep wrangling without any substance whatsoever to offer....

You already stated that it is irrational.... so why have you changed your mind now...

Obviously that's irrational. Believing in a deities omnipotent or not is also irrational.....

When you do not believe in omnipotent gods... then the LOGICAL DEFAULT position is that those DELUSIONS do not then proceed to write works of fiction and then foist them onto humanity to HOAX them into believing that the works of fiction are reality.

And if you believe in gods then if they do write works of FLIMFLAM to SCAM humanity then those are DEMONS not gods.

You and the other guy and most of the "us" (apparently) agree that I have proven that it is a work of fiction....

That would appear to be a case for the bible being a work of fiction, as I think almost everyone here would agree, but can you explain which part shows that the fiction could not have been authored by an omnipotent deity?

So either you think it is rational to believe in nonexistent deities who write works of fiction... or ... you believe that YHWH is a Demon

I have proven .... either that the Bible is a work of fiction and thus no deity wrote it who is the kind of deity that the Bible says its deity is.... or that the Bible is a work of fiction and a TRICKSTER DASTARD of a demon wrote it.

You choose.... but whichever way... QED!!!




.

 

[Thermal]

As an atheist... I do not believe in the Devil....

But can you prove that the DEVIL did not write the Bible???

I can prove that the DEVIL was in cahoots with Jesus according to the New Tall tales ... so maybe the Devil... who is a major character in the NT... learned Koine Greek and wrote down the NT pretending to be Paul et al writing down the stuff like he pretended to be YHWH writing down the stuff....

Can you prove that Devil did not write the Bible as well as the New Tall tales as his second work of fiction???

Brother Leumas, being very very generous to you:

You are showing at best that the devil/satan at times does god's bidding, especially if it were to serve the D-man's ends. This is well-known in Judeo-Christian theology, and not the stunning revelation you think it is. As usual, you are 'proving' precisely squat.

It's not even unusual in human terms. If your boss gives you permission to wreak havoc, you gleefully wreak havoc. It doesn't mean you are 'in cahoots'. It means you are an opportunist. By no means at all does it mean that you wouldn't wreak havoc in another situation without said permission.

 

[Steve]

Good.... so now go and find something else to do... I made this thread for ones who believe the Bible is written by the finger of YHWH and still do believe it and also believe YHWH is real.

So this thread is ... as you said... pointless FOR YOU ... so don't bother then... why are you even bothering???

Do you think everyone in the world thinks like you???

Here are a few who would disagree with you vehemently... this thread is for them and their ilk...

And have you encountered any of those types here? Have you noticed that none of your "this guy" examples are posting here? Or are even aware that you are posting here? Seems a futile effort if that is really your goal. You should go to where "those guys" are and argue with them.

Actually this thread, and its partner thread re virgins, consist almost entirely of your rather pathetic attempts to find arguments with those who agree with your main point. Some posters, who are discussing from an almost purely academic perspective, are making some interesting points and keep me reading these threads. I have yet to see the same from you, but here I shall remain.

 

[Leumas]

Brother Leumas,

Why do you keep disingenuously calling me that... you are no brother of mine... unless you mean it in the priestly way... but I am not a priest or even a christian and I think Jesus was a pathetic simpleton or a turpitudinous charlatan cult leader if he ever existed.

So no... there is not a gluon of brotherhood between us.... so stop calling me that.

being very very generous to you:

You are showing at best that the devil/satan at times does god's bidding, especially if it were to serve the D-man's ends. This is well-known in Judeo-Christian theology, and not the stunning revelation you think it is. As usual, you are 'proving' precisely squat.

It's not even unusual in human terms. If your boss gives you permission to wreak havoc, you gleefully wreak havoc. It doesn't mean you are 'in cahoots'. It means you are an opportunist. By no means at all does it mean that you wouldn't wreak havoc in another situation without said permission.

Great... so YHWH is a devil... thanks for admitting it.... QED!!!!

 

[Craig4]

OK.... so now that you say that I have not proven that YHWH is not the writer.... then you have to show me how YHWH exists and how it is him who wrote the bible... or maybe you think it is Loki or Quetzalcoatl ... which is it....

If you cannot do that... then what??? You just want to keep wrangling without any substance whatsoever to offer....

You already stated that it is irrational.... so why have you changed your mind now...




When you do not believe in omnipotent gods... then the LOGICAL DEFAULT position is that those DELUSIONS do not then proceed to write works of fiction and then foist them onto humanity to HOAX them into believing that the works of fiction are reality.

And if you believe in gods then if they do write works of FLIMFLAM to SCAM humanity then those are DEMONS not gods.

You and the other guy and most of the "us" (apparently) agree that I have proven that it is a work of fiction....





So either you think it is rational to believe in nonexistent deities who write works of fiction... or ... you believe that YHWH is a Demon

I have proven .... either that the Bible is a work of fiction and thus no deity wrote it who is the kind of deity that the Bible says its deity is.... or that the Bible is a work of fiction and a TRICKSTER DASTARD of a demon wrote it.

You choose.... but whichever way... QED!!!




.

You're the one making the claim. Prove your negative. If you're claiming that a god didn't write the bible, I don't need to come up with every possible supernatural explanation for the bible. You need to demonstrate a god didn't write the bible.