Transwomen are not women - X (XY?)

[Rolfe]

Yes, by giving them assess to women-only spaces.

I hold the door open for women AND men, as its polite.

They are male. If they have legal access to single-sex female spaces, women no longer have any single-sex spaces, because these have now become mixed-sex.

Perhaps you missed the link to the film that collects video clips posted by transwomen themselves about their approach to "being a woman" and the fetishism that's involved in most of these cases. Here you go again.

https://odysee.com/@Skirt_Go_Spinny:7/Wrong-Ans-Only-1:b

Watch that, and find out about autogynaephilia, and accept that these are the people you want to give absolute unfettered access to women's intimate spaces, as of right.

 

[Myriad]

Not going to discuss the obvious.

If it's so obvious how come there has never been a straightforward non-circular answer to that question, that has been asked repeatedly, in the entirety of ten (so far) threads?

Please post the obvious answer. What feature(s) do transwomen have that are shared with women but not with men?

 

[Hercules56]

Yes, we have established this.

All the practical applications of trans inclusionism in public policy are essentially about transcending sex segregation. And in terms of biological sex and the reasons for sex segregation, transwomen are male and should be segregated with their fellow males.

Don't let yourself be confused by the twin equivocations of the trans-activists: The equivocation between gender and sex; and the equivocation between erasing biological sex as a distinguishing concept versus preserving biological sex as a clear line that some people should be allowed to cross over.


I don't. What's the best argument you've seen, on the side of transwomen being women that must be treated as women?

They dress as a women, they undergo hormone therapy and surgery to make them look like a physical woman, they live their lives as a woman, they identify as a woman and with women.

 

[Ziggurat]

What's the best argument you've seen, on the side of transwomen being women that must be treated as women?

It would make them feel better.

As far as I can tell, that's really the main argument. There are also some claims about safety for trans people (ie, transwomen who are forced to use male spaces are supposedly attacked for doing so), but that seems to be a secondary one.

 

[shuttlt]

They dress as a women, they undergo hormone therapy and surgery to make them look like a physical woman, they live their lives as a woman, they identify as a woman and with women.

It's just like the feminists said, "woman" is a performance.

 

[theprestige]

24 pages. Help me out a little here.

Help yourself. You can't credibly maintain a position of righteous indignation and a position of ignorance about a topic at the same time. Instead of ignorantly accusing people who have been discussing this for years of being merely hysterical, try humbly admitting you know nothing about the topic and politely asking for some references.

 

[Ziggurat]

They dress as a women, they undergo hormone therapy and surgery to make them look like a physical woman, they live their lives as a woman, they identify as a woman and with women.

That's... not actually an argument for why anyone else should treat them as women.

 

[theprestige]

They dress as a women,

Meaningless, except as a rightly deprecated stereotype about women.

they undergo hormone therapy and surgery to make them look like a physical woman,

Look like a physical female.

they live their lives as a woman,

Meaningless, except as a rightly deprecated stereotype about women and gender roles.

Or else you mean they live their lives trying to pass as female.

they identify as a woman and with women.

Either meaningless or impossible or dishonest, or some combination, depending on how you choose to define "woman" in this context.

 

[Hercules56]

Meaningless, except as a rightly deprecated stereotype about women.


Look like a physical female.


Meaningless, except as a rightly deprecated stereotype about women and gender roles.

Or else you mean they live their lives trying to pass as female.


Either meaningless or impossible or dishonest, or some combination, depending on how you choose to define "woman" in this context.

Why is it "meaningless, impossible or dishonest" for a transwomen to identify as and with women?

 

[Rolfe]

Not inevitable. Women come into male toilets all the time when there are queues. One wouldn't have to enforce it in both directions. For many sports there are female only leagues, and then open leagues. These things are created around protecting women and addressing women's concerns, not protecting men or addressing men's concerns. The male only spaces that women didn't want turned out to be based on prejudice.

Hardly "all the time". It's something I can only remember doing once in my life and it was in Egypt. The tour guide insisted, as we had to keep to a timetable. The men in there, seeing a procession of women come in, were obviously very uncomfortable and I was too.

If men don't like the presence of a woman in a men's toilet, they are free to ask her to leave, or not to come in.

And the sports leagues is a complete red herring. You know as well as I do why open leagues rather than male leagues have been suggested. It's hardly an invasion of men's territory. (It's to allow males who don't want to accept that they're males to compete.)

 

[theprestige]

Why is it "meaningless, impossible or dishonest" for a transwomen to identify as and with women?

If your definition of "woman" is decoupled from biological sex, it's meaningless. Identifying as a woman, with such a definition, is a meaningless claim.

If your definition of "woman" is synonymous with "biological female", then it's impossible for a male to identify as and with women because the experience of gender dysphoria in males is not identical to the experience of actually growing up female.

Dishonest if you know these truths but insist on "identifying" anyway.

 

[Rolfe]

Why is it "meaningless, impossible or dishonest" for a transwomen to identify as and with women?

Because they are not adult human females and they have no idea what it is to be an adult human female. They are pretending. They are LARPing. They are demanding validation for their autogynaephilic fetish. For goodness sake, stop typing for five minutes and read up on some of this.

 

[Rolfe]

Going back to the question of parents transing their little boys because they'd rather have a trans daughter than a gay son, this one just popped up. The article is pro-trans propaganda even to the point of citing the false suicide statistics, but it's absolutely clear that the poor little boy was saying he was a girl to make the beatings he was getting for liking girly things stop.

https://twitter.com/4th_WaveNow/status/1287864162312364033

 

[Rolfe]

If your definition of "woman" is decoupled from biological sex, it's meaningless. Identifying as a woman, with such a definition, is a meaningless claim.

If your definition of "woman" is synonymous with "biological female", then it's impossible for a male to identify as and with women because the experience of gender dysphoria in males is not identical to the experience of actually growing up female.

Dishonest if you know these truths but insist on "identifying" anyway.

Very well put.

 

[Hercules56]

Because they are not adult human females and they have no idea what it is to be an adult human female. They are pretending. They are LARPing. They are demanding validation for their autogynaephilic fetish. For goodness sake, stop typing for five minutes and read up on some of this.

This doesn't take into account men who feel they were born into the WRONG body and need to undergo hormone therapy and surgery to become the person they truly are and were meant to be.

 

[theprestige]

Why is it "meaningless, impossible or dishonest" for a transwomen to identify as and with women?

If your definition of "woman" is decoupled from biological sex, it's meaningless. Identifying as a woman, with such a definition, is a meaningless claim.

If your definition of "woman" is synonymous with "biological female", then it's impossible for a male to identify as and with women because the experience of gender dysphoria in males is not identical to the experience of actually growing up female.

Dishonest if you know these truths but insist on "identifying" anyway.

Because they are not adult human females and they have no idea what it is to be an adult human female. They are pretending. They are LARPing. They are demanding validation for their autogynaephilic fetish. For goodness sake, stop typing for five minutes and read up on some of this.

Hercules56, here's an example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Levine#Honors

"Rachel" Levine is not actually a woman. Most of "her" career was accomplished as a man, with all the social advantages to career advancement that men tend to enjoy. Only as "she" approached the highest levels of her field, and only in a new cultural context where transsexuality is now being openly celebrated and privileged, did "she" make the switch to "womanhood". Any dissonance or distress she experienced along the way was the dissonance and distress of someone suffering from gender dysphoria, not that of a woman experiencing womanhood.

An actual woman, born female and working her way up the career ladder as a woman, would have had a very different experience. If she achieved a similar outcome, it would be on a very different basis than Admiral Levine has achieved "hers". For Levine to claim identity with women, for Levine to be accorded representational status as a woman, is a travesty. An obscenity, even.

 

[shuttlt]

Hardly "all the time". It's something I can only remember doing once in my life and it was in Egypt. The tour guide insisted, as we had to keep to a timetable. The men in there, seeing a procession of women come in, were obviously very uncomfortable and I was too.

You may not be comfortable, but it's a common enough thing. It typically happens when there are long queues at gigs, theatres, cinemas and so on. I'm pretty sure I've seen it at the Natural History Museum where I recall the toilet facilities being inadequate. Normally there is some assertive woman who leads the charge. My mother has definitely joined the line of women going to the gents. I've never seen any protest.

If men don't like the presence of a woman in a men's toilet, they are free to ask her to leave, or not to come in.

I'm not sure there is really a sense that men are entitled to do that. You are coming from the perspective of decades of feminism. You can't map that on to men. Beyond that, men tend to be isolated individuals in these spaces. Uniting together is generally not how men operate in toilets, George Michael not withstanding.

And the sports leagues is a complete red herring. You know as well as I do why open leagues rather than male leagues have been suggested. It's hardly an invasion of men's territory. (It's to allow males who don't want to accept that they're males to compete.)

I know why these things are the case. As I said, both segregated toilets, and segregated sports are there to for the benefit of women. The sex segregated spaces that were there for the benefit of men were decided to be based on prejudice and were gotten rid of.

 

[Rolfe]

This doesn't take into account men who feel they were born into the WRONG body and need to undergo hormone therapy and surgery to become the person they truly are and were meant to be.

That's pure fantasy and propaganda. Stop buying it.

Nobody was born into the wrong body. We are our bodies. This schtick is the cover story autogynaephiles put out to justify their fetish.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Why is sex the only "wrong" body anyone is ever born into?

Nobody is born with the wrong blood type. Nobody with detached earlobes identities as someone with attached earlobes.

 

[Rolfe]

Here's another perspective.

https://twitter.com/hatpinwoman/status/1586018643887804418