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Transwomen are not women - X (XY?)

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shuttlt said:
Rolfe feels that having special spaces for women is necessary for particular reasons, but that that shouldn't apply to men.
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You entirely misrepresent me. I am totally in favour of women being kept out of men's bathrooms, changing rooms, showers, sleeping accommodations, prisons and so on. Men need and deserve their sex-segregated intimate spaces too and I will defend them with as much rigour as I defend female spaces. My male friends told me how they feel and I sympathise with them.

You then went off on an unrelated tangent about women-only initiatives and awards and protected categories for things like scholarships and political office. That is an entirely different situation. I don't actually think these things should exist other than perhaps on an occasional low-key basis. What I do think is that if you're going to have them in the first place. IT IS COUNTERPRODUCTIVE AND A DOWNRIGHT INSULT TO THEN SAY THAT MEN ARE INCLUDED.
 
Hercules56 said:
Nobody, that's why seperate male & female bathrooms are not considered to be discrimination.
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Could you maybe make your mind up where you stand on this, because I am tired of chasing the goal posts across the endless plain.

Do you or do you not consider that males should be allowed in women's bathrooms and that to deny them entry is discriminatory?
 
shuttlt said:
Why would the non-trans sexual predators not take advantage of women being unable to keep them out of the female bathrooms as well?
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Constant and never-ending "what ifs" is not a sound argument.

Until I see evidence of a evil plot by non-trans male predators to get into the ladies' room by dressing as a woman and claiming to be trans, I think its just hysteria.
 
Hercules56 said:
What percent of trans-women are sexual predators?
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Oh God, not that again. Maybe ask what percent of sexual predators will claim to be transwomen. Bearing in mind that sexual predators have adopted every possible other identity open to them in order to get access to vulnerable victims. Up to and including training as Roman Catholic priests and spending their lives in that career.

Bitter experience has taught women that all men must be excluded from their intimate spaces in order to ensure that men of ill intent have no easy means of getting in there. If you can find a legal way to allow only the nice, unthreatening ones in there while excluding the perverts, do tell.
 
Hercules56 said:
Constant and never-ending "what ifs" is not a sound argument.

Until I see evidence of a evil plot by non-trans male predators to get into the ladies' room by dressing as a woman and claiming to be trans, I think its just hysteria.
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The man speaks. Women, you are being hysterical. The man says that men must be granted legal right of access to your intimate spaces because he knows better than you.

What he has not explained is why he thinks this ought to happen, having just a few posts back declared that sex-segregated intimate spaces are not discriminatory and in fact entirely acceptable.

It's hardly a plot when individuals choose to do something on their own initiative. And who is to say that anyone is "non-trans", in the present climate where all that is required is a statement that you are trans.

I think you are jumping to argue against points as they arise without considering previous answers, and as a result you are all over the place and contradicting yourself. Go back and look at the film of the "transwomen" you want to inflict on us, and find out about autogynaephilia. A creep and a pervert is not necessarily "non-trans".
 
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Rolfe said:
You entirely misrepresent me. I am totally in favour of women being kept out of men's bathrooms, changing rooms, showers, sleeping accommodations, prisons and so on. Men need and deserve their sex-segregated intimate spaces too and I will defend them with as much rigour as I defend female spaces. My male friends told me how they feel and I sympathise with them.
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Why would the sex segregated spaces men need be the same as the sex segregated spaces women need? All the sex segregated spaces that men had, but have gone, were based on prejudice etc? The trick is to be the person whose ideology decides what is and isn't a valid reason. Previously feminist ideology decided that all sorts of male spaces were prejudicial, and they had to go. Now trans ideology has decided that female only spaces are prejudicial and they have to go.

Rolfe said:
You then went off on an unrelated tangent about women-only initiatives and awards and protected categories for things like scholarships and political office. That is an entirely different situation. I don't actually think these things should exist other than perhaps on an occasional low-key basis. What I do think is that if you're going to have them in the first place. IT IS COUNTERPRODUCTIVE AND A DOWNRIGHT INSULT TO THEN SAY THAT MEN ARE INCLUDED.
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Right, but Hercules56 was saying that discrimination was illegal, and that society had decided that discrimination based on sex and what not was terrible and bad. No it hasn't. It has decided that some of it is bad and some is good.
 
Rolfe said:
The man speaks. Women, you are being hysterical. The man says that men must be granted legal right of access to your intimate spaces because he knows better than you.

What he has not explained is why he thinks this ought to happen, having just a few posts back declared that sex-segregated intimate spaces are not discriminatory and in fact entirely acceptable.
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This was about accusing transwomen of being sexual predators.

Or that predatory men will plot to get access to little girls by pretending to be transwomen and going to the Ladies' Room.

I'd like to see any evidence of this occuring.
 
shuttlt said:
Why would the sex segregated spaces men need be the same as the sex segregated spaces women need? All the sex segregated spaces that men had, but have gone, were based on prejudice etc? The trick is to be the person whose ideology decides what is and isn't a valid reason. Previously feminist ideology decided that all sorts of male spaces were prejudicial, and they had to go. Now trans ideology has decided that female only spaces are prejudicial and they have to go.


Right, but Hercules56 was saying that discrimination was illegal, and that society had decided that discrimination based on sex and what not was terrible and bad. No it hasn't. It has decided that some of it is bad and some is good.
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Trans "ideology" hasn't declared that female-only space have to go. They have declared that transwomen ARE women, and should be allowed in female-only spaces.
 
Hercules56 said:
Constant and never-ending "what ifs" is not a sound argument.
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This is the way progress operates. The next phase, when the predicted bad thing happens, is to claim it has nothing to do with the social change we just pushed through, claim it impossible to go back and accuse the person of wanting to return to the 1950s. There is this naïve idea that we can change society like a science experiment, where we turn one nob to adjust a variable, see the result, and if its bad turn the nob back. These changes are almost never unwound.
 
Hercules56 said:
Trans "ideology" hasn't declared that female-only space have to go. They have declared that transwomen ARE women, and should be allowed in female-only spaces.
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OK, now we're getting closer. We are arguing against trans ideology. We point out that transwomen are adult human males, and that adult human males are not permitted in female-only spaces.

You want to take the TWAW line, knock yourself out. But do spare us the barely-relevant crap about discrimination and racism.
 
Hercules56 said:
Trans "ideology" hasn't declared that female-only space have to go. They have declared that transwomen ARE women, and should be allowed in female-only spaces.
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Once you start allowing males into a female-only space, the female-only space is gone.

Saying that males have to be allowed in female-only spaces is identical to saying female-only spaces have to go.
 
shuttlt said:
This is the way progress operates. The next phase, when the predicted bad thing happens, is to claim it has nothing to do with the social change we just pushed through, claim it impossible to go back and accuse the person of wanting to return to the 1950s. There is this naïve idea that we can change society like a science experiment, where we turn one nob to adjust a variable, see the result, and if its bad turn the nob back. These changes are almost never unwound.
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Let me know when we see an unfortunate trend of transwomen assaulting girls in the bathroom, or men falsely claiming to be transwomen and getting into the Ladies Room so as to assault girls.

Until this occurs, its mere hysteria.
 
Hercules56 said:
Let me know when we see an unfortunate trend of transwomen assaulting girls in the bathroom, or men falsely claiming to be transwomen and getting into the Ladies Room so as to assault girls.

Until this occurs, its mere hysteria.
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These, and other abuses of the "polite fiction" approach, are already occurring.
 
theprestige said:
Once you start allowing males into a female-only space, the female-only space is gone.

Saying that males have to be allowed in female-only spaces is identical to saying female-only spaces have to go.
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We haven't yet established that all transwomen are MEN and must be treated as MEN.

I see good arguments on both sides.
 
Hercules56 said:
This was about accusing transwomen of being sexual predators.

Or that predatory men will plot to get access to little girls by pretending to be transwomen and going to the Ladies' Room.

I'd like to see any evidence of this occuring.
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Transwomen are as likely as any other men to be sexual predators. We keep ALL men out of women's spaces so that the small percentage who are predators can be excluded. (And for other reasons of comfort and modesty and religious requirements too of course.)

Transwomen are not some sort of uniquely angelic class of men. We keep all men out of women's spaces, and there is no special thing about the ones who claim to be transwomen that shoud exempt them from that. Or do you also want to let in any man who isn't a predator? Why discriminate against the nice, kind, non-predatory men in this way?
 
Hercules56 said:
Proof?

Got a news article?
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God, there are about twenty Twitter threads collecting such articles together, mostly getting very long by now. "That thing that never happens has just happened again" is the usual comment. It would be funny if it wasn't so serious. If you really aren't aware of this, you're too naive to be in this thread, quite honestly.
 
Hercules56 said:
Let me know when we see an unfortunate trend of transwomen assaulting girls in the bathroom, or men falsely claiming to be transwomen and getting into the Ladies Room so as to assault girls.

Until this occurs, its mere hysteria.
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I would not be surprised if there wasn't a weird absence of any desire to collect stats like that. In any case, how do you determine who is lying about identifying as a woman.
 
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