“Woke”

[bluesjnr]

Some really good posts on this page.

 

[Darat]

Some really good posts on this page.

I see what you did.

Mind you how dare you use the word post to refer to our messages! I insist it can only be used with its "original" meaning, and no one has sunk upright timbers into this page!

And "page" - how dare I redefine page to mean....

And "dare" how durst you use such a modern past tense!

 

[d4m10n]

The meaning of English words is simply how people use the word, there is no ceding of meaning.

Whenever the original users of a word or phrase give up on using it, they are turning over usage to the new users and thus ceding mastery over what it will be taken to mean. I don't think this has happened to "woke" yet, but some do. It certainly has happened to "based," though, which is something of an antonym to woke these days.

 

[ZiprHead]

I see what you did.

Mind you how dare you use the word post to refer to our messages! I insist it can only be used with its "original" meaning, and no one has sunk upright timbers into this page!

And "page" - how dare I redefine page to mean....

And "dare" how durst you use such a modern past tense!

 

[I Am The Scum]

For those that do not think the usage of the term has changed into something almost exclusively derisive, let's try this: Find some professional publication (news article/broadcast, advertisement, scientific journal, etc.) where "woke" is being in a non-pejorative way. Limit your search to something published this year, and don't include any publication where the subject is the debate over the definition of the term itself.

Maybe this will be a nearly-impossible challenge. Or, perhaps it will be quite easy, and the social circles I'm in have skewed my perception. Good luck.

 

[RecoveringYuppy]

https://studentsstaywoke.weebly.com

 

[theprestige]

For those that do not think the usage of the term has changed into something almost exclusively derisive, let's try this: Find some professional publication (news article/broadcast, advertisement, scientific journal, etc.) where "woke" is being in a non-pejorative way. Limit your search to something published this year, and don't include any publication where the subject is the debate over the definition of the term itself.

Maybe this will be a nearly-impossible challenge. Or, perhaps it will be quite easy, and the social circles I'm in have skewed my perception. Good luck.

Of course it's derisive now. It became derisive because people noticed that the paradigm and process it refers to is risible and derisory. There is no "wokeness used to be something healthy and positive and good, and then they stole the word and made it an insult" narrative you can flog here. It's not the word that's changed. It's people's perception of the thing it represents.

 

[I Am The Scum]

Of course it's derisive now. It became derisive because people noticed that the paradigm and process it refers to is risible and derisory. There is no "wokeness used to be something healthy and positive and good, and then they stole the word and made it an insult" narrative you can flog here. It's not the word that's changed. It's people's perception of the thing it represents.

I'll clarify: By "pejorative definition" I mean "nebulous right-wing out-of-proportion complaint," such as saying Mr. Potato Head or meatless menu options are "woke."

That's basically 100% of how I see the term being used.

 

[Stout]

Gotta love Alberta politicians.

This is hilarious

Enough with this woke **** YouTube link one minute video.

 

[d4m10n]

Find some professional publication (news article/broadcast, advertisement, scientific journal, etc.) where "woke" is being in a non-pejorative way. Limit your search to something published this year, and don't include any publication where the subject is the debate over the definition of the term itself.

Does the NYT count?

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/03/...dterm-elections-polling.html?showTranscript=1

(Click the transcript button if it doesn't pop up.)

((Notice that most survey respondents said Democrats are not too woke.))

 

[d4m10n]

Find some professional publication (news article/broadcast, advertisement, scientific journal, etc.) where "woke" is being in a non-pejorative way. Limit your search to something published this year, and don't include any publication where the subject is the debate over the definition of the term itself.

Does Slate count?

Baz Luhrmann’s biopic scrambles to reassure us with a woke Elvis while failing to understand what really made him the King.

https://slate.com/culture/2022/06/elvis-movie-2022-austin-butler-tom-hanks-racist.html

 

[d4m10n]

Find some professional publication (news article/broadcast, advertisement, scientific journal, etc.) where "woke" is being in a non-pejorative way. Limit your search to something published this year, and don't include any publication where the subject is the debate over the definition of the term itself.

How about Time?

From Dave Chappelle to Hannah Gadsby, voices on all sides of comedy's woke wars need to stop obsessing over their social-media haters.

https://time.com/6166982/bill-maher-adulting-comedians-obsessed-with-haters/

 

[arthwollipot]

I see what you did.

Mind you how dare you use the word post to refer to our messages! I insist it can only be used with its "original" meaning, and no one has sunk upright timbers into this page!

And "page" - how dare I redefine page to mean....

And "dare" how durst you use such a modern past tense!

My father once tried to argue that it shouldn't be called an email "account" because accounts are for holding money.

I countered that electrical circuits shouldn't carry "current" because currents occur in water. He's an electrical engineer.

 

[arthwollipot]

This entire thread can be summed up thusly:

English is messy, and doesn't follow strict laws.

/thread

 

[I Am The Scum]

Does the NYT count?

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/03/...dterm-elections-polling.html?showTranscript=1

(Click the transcript button if it doesn't pop up.)

((Notice that most survey respondents said Democrats are not too woke.))

Does Slate count?


https://slate.com/culture/2022/06/elvis-movie-2022-austin-butler-tom-hanks-racist.html

How about Time?

https://time.com/6166982/bill-maher-adulting-comedians-obsessed-with-haters/

Respectfully, I don't think you understood the question, as all three support my point. They are all treating "woke" like it's a bad thing.

 

[d4m10n]

They are all treating "woke" like it's a bad thing.

We disagree; none of those sources were condemning wokeness or characterizing those who do when they invoked the term itself.

Also, if "woke" necessarily implies badness, 60% of respondents to the NYT poll must have misunderstood the question.

"Woke" & "anti-woke" are basically just two sides in a series of culture war skirmishes; progressives to the left of the ampersand and conservatives to the right.

 

[I Am The Scum]

"Woke" & "anti-woke" are basically just two sides in a series of culture war skirmishes; progressives to the left of the ampersand and conservatives to the right.

As clearly as I can say it, I am claiming two things:

1. Nearly 100% of the time, when you hear the term, it is being used by one of the "anti-woke" people, or conceding to their framing of the term.
2. Exactly what that term means when being used by an "anti-woke" person can vary wildly to the point of uselessness. One day it might have something to do with a Dr. Seuss book being removed from publication. The next, it's being shouted because a black person showed up on the TV.

I'm asking for counterexamples of (1) but take a shot at (2) if you want. None have been provided.

 

[Thermal]

As clearly as I can say it, I am claiming two things:

1. Nearly 100% of the time, when you hear the term, it is being used by one of the "anti-woke" people, or conceding to their framing of the term.
2. Exactly what that term means when being used by an "anti-woke" person can vary wildly to the point of uselessness. One day it might have something to do with a Dr. Seuss book being removed from publication. The next, it's being shouted because a black person showed up on the TV.

I'm asking for counterexamples of (1) but take a shot at (2) if you want. None have been provided.

Of course you won't get counterexamples of #1. People used 'woke' seriously for like a hot second till realizing they sounded like idiots that can't use words properly. The only people still using it seriously are those championing illiterate speech patterns.

Now 'woke' is largely a slam for people taking social consciousness/ political correctness to comical extremes. 'Overwoke' was a term I heard bantered, which is probably a better descriptor for such attitudes.

And as with almost any word in the English language, it can be used consistently or not. Mx Gender Neutral Potato Head is laughably overwoke. Meatless options at Cracker Barrel are not, and are a smart idea, for both customers and marketing strategies to health conscious demographics that like Southern style cooking.

 

[arthwollipot]

I've been rereading old threads, because that's something I do, and I came across this example of what I was talking about before:

"PC" and "SJW" are two terms I've stopped using, because I've noticed some people's reaction to hearing them is to think "Oh, you're one of those people" and then productive discussion goes out the window.

Is Meed here ceding the use of those terms to others? Or are they merely recognising that they are no longer useful in a productive discussion?

 

[Darat]

Whenever the original users of a word or phrase give up on using it, they are turning over usage to the new users and thus ceding mastery over what it will be taken to mean. I don't think this has happened to "woke" yet, but some do. It certainly has happened to "based," though, which is something of an antonym to woke these days.

There is no such "mastery" - all there is is usage - in 50 years time woke could mean anything and no one will have "ceded" any "original" meaning.

You don't seem to be castigating the American black population for ceding the meaning of the word, why not? Indeed why aren't you castigating the USA as a whole for ceding mastery - at least for a few decades - to the USA black population?

No one owns the use of words.