• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Transwomen are not women - X (XY?)

Status
Not open for further replies.
Rolfe said:
No average swimmer can beat an Olympic-class swimmer. What is your point, caller?

It has been shown multiple times that if you match élite athletes in a particular sport, men and women, for height, weight and wingspan, then men are still about 10% better than the women. Across the board.


Click to expand...

That 10% advantage for identical sized athletes seems way too narrow. On what basis was that calculated?

Never mind, I found the study.
 
Last edited:
GlennB said:
They're so insanely huge I'm tempted to think that s/he's doing it as a protest of some kind.
Click to expand...

When this thread first started, I kinda thought Rolfe's idea that the trans rights movement is a trojan horse for AGPs who get off on causing discomfort was uncharitable, conspiracy-theoretical, and quite possibly hateful.

Nowadays, I'm not so sure.
 
d4m10n said:
Okay so I came across this passage which sums up the core of the issue quite nicely: Source

I'm taking the trouble to paste this passage in from an awkwardly formatted PDF b/c it's nice to see the central issue summed up succinctly in the words of an early advocate.
Click to expand...

:boggled: Someone let me know when we start reproducing using brain waves.
 
stanfr said:
But I think my question is pertinent--should the transmen whose photo I linked above (or transwomen if you prefer) be denied access to traditional male(female) spaces or positions simply because they were born in the 'other' biological sex?

You (and most here) clearly think they should. I'm not so sure.
Click to expand...

There are topics that we have discussed ad nauseum in this thread, and which many of us get tired of having to reiterate. But I'll give it another go.

Females that identify as transmen and take hormones pass significantly better as men than the other way around. Testosterone is a one-way street. It causes physiological changes that cannot be undone. Muscle mass is the very least of it, and the only thing that is somewhat "reversible" if a female stops taking testosterone. Facial hair, on the other hand, does not go away. Once the biological switches have been tripped, even if a female stops taking testosterone, they will not stop producing facial hair. Similarly, once their voice drops - which is a result of testosterone - it will never rise again. These changes are permanent in females.

Males that identify as transwomen and take hormones almost never pass even a little bit unless they have considerable cosmetic surgery. Estrogen alone will result in a repositioning of fat on the body, leading to marginally softer hips and face, as well as deposits of fatty tissue in the breast. But estrogen will not stop a male from growing facial hair, nor will it raise their voice, nor will it alter their skeletal structure. If a male stops taking estrogen, they will revert back to a male-typical muscle and fat distribution in relatively short order. The visual changes caused to a male by taking exogenous estrogen are not permanent.

In humans, females are better at sexing other humans than males are, although both are very good at it. Shown faces alone, in monochrome, without hair or make-up or clothing indicators, females correctly sex an unaltered human about 98% of the time, and males do so about 90% of the time. I have my speculations about why that is, but it's a bit off topic.

Facial hair is a strong indicator of sex in humans, as it's an element that is dimorphic in all but extremely rare cases of female hirsuitism. If a person has a beard, we will - all of us - assume they are male and rarely look closer.

The net result of all of these factors is that females who identify as transmen are less likely to be accurately sexed by cursory glance than are males who identify as transwoman.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

On the topic of females who identify as transmen being required to use the single sex spaces of their biology... well, to be frank, most of us don't care which spaces they use. Some males would undoubtedly be put out by the presence of a female body being naked in their presence, and I can definitely empathize with that.

But the situations are not parallels.

I know some people don't want to admit it, but statistically males are materially more likely to be aggressive and violent, and to be sexual predators than females are. So there's an element of agency and risk involved in which spaces a transgender person uses, dependent on their sex.

I'll attempt a poor analogy here. Let's make the illustrative assumption that males are foxes and females are hens. If a hen decides that they are a "fox in spirit" and decides to go visit the fox's den... well, that's on them. They are the one who is accepting the known risk to themselves. The foxes may not like the hen in their den... and the foxes are completely capable of forcing that hen to either leave or face the easily foreseeable consequences of their presence.

On the other hand... if a fox decides they are a "hen in spirt" and decides to wander on into the hen coop... well that's something altogether different, isn't it? The hens are certainly not a threat to the fox, even if they greatly outnumber the fox. A single fox in a henhouse could cause immense harm if they so desired. And despite there being many hens to only one fox, it is the fox that represents the threat.

To break this analogy down to its salient point: When a female that identifies as a transman enters a male-only space, they are willingly accepting a risk to themselves. When a male that identifies as a transwoman enters a female-only space, they are imposing a risk on everyone except themselves.
 
Emily's Cat said:
I disagree a female that identifies as a transman, and is attracted to females, would by definition be a same-sex attracted female, and thus properly referred to as a lesbian.
Click to expand...
"Lesbian" is among the many terms which must be redefined for the sake of the Central Tenet.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk
 
I am less exercised by the threat issue personally. I recognise it's a big issue, but somehow it doesn't seem real to me on an emotional level. My principle concern is one I have explained before. To have true freedom of choice human females exercise control over which males they allow to see them in an intimate situation. If we allow a male to see us undressed or partly undressed, that is a positive choice, and we choose to do that only with males we are intimate with or are signalling we are prepared to be intimate with.

Taking that choice away from us is a very real violation. It says, you do not get to choose who you permit to see you in an intimate situation, you do not have agency, you are being forced.

No, it's not rape, but it's a personal violation that has the same taste to it. And that applies whether the male who is in our space is domineering or considerate, violent or self-effacing.
 
He has a girlfriend. He's heterosexual. That's part of the reason the swimming girls are so concerned.

Of course he claims to be a lesbian.
 
Rolfe said:
I am less exercised by the threat issue personally. I recognise it's a big issue, but somehow it doesn't seem real to me on an emotional level. My principle concern is one I have explained before. To have true freedom of choice human females exercise control over which males they allow to see them in an intimate situation. If we allow a male to see us undressed or partly undressed, that is a positive choice, and we choose to do that only with males we are intimate with or are signalling we are prepared to be intimate with.

Taking that choice away from us is a very real violation. It says, you do not get to choose who you permit to see you in an intimate situation, you do not have agency, you are being forced.

No, it's not rape, but it's a personal violation that has the same taste to it. And that applies whether the male who is in our space is domineering or considerate, violent or self-effacing.
Click to expand...

Also true. The consent aspect of it bothers me a huge amount.
 
theprestige said:
As I said. It's literally a hate crime to criticize a woman for having breasts, even if they are absurdly large.
Click to expand...

It doesn't "have breasts", it's a set of silicone falsies, most likely designed for Ru Paul's Drag Race, or similar parody events.
 
The Atheist said:
It doesn't "have breasts", it's a set of silicone falsies, most likely designed for Ru Paul's Drag Race, or similar parody events.
Click to expand...

The joke is in the assumptions that have to be made, to conclude that this man is or should be protected by the anti-discrimination laws and values.

The joke is one of those "it's funny because it's true" type jokes. People really are making those assumptions and applying those laws and values to this situation.
 
Vixen said:
It just seems amusing that people who are anti-transgender rights have to make out they are really concerned about female prisoners all of a sudden.
Click to expand...
Why is that amusing to you? Actually, never mind your amusement which isn't of interest, why is it even a surprise to you?

Since day one of this thread chain (about 5 years back), the defence against trans rights activism has been focused on their claim for the right of males to unfettered access to female-only settings. This grossly violates the agency of women, such that opponents to this strand of TRA think the case for preservation (of female-only settings) substantially outweighs any case for biological males (including transwomen) to transgress it.

So of course this would extend to female-only settings in prisons as well, without prejudice. Women in prison have been penalised of liberty; they do not deserve to be penalised of the agency and dignity and safety associated with sex-segregated settings, which exist inside prison just as they do outside (in fact more so).

To not extend this concern to female prisoners would be decidedly misogynistic. Well that rings a bell in respect of your views.
 
The Atheist said:
It doesn't "have breasts", it's a set of silicone falsies, most likely designed for Ru Paul's Drag Race, or similar parody events.
Click to expand...


Someone found the very item on sale. There is a word for it. It's in relation to a specific genre of Japanese animé porn.
 
Francesca R said:
Why is that amusing to you? Actually, never mind your amusement which isn't of interest, why is it even a surprise to you?

Since day one of this thread chain (about 5 years back), the defence against trans rights activism has been focused on their claim for the right of males to unfettered access to female-only settings. This grossly violates the agency of women, such that opponents to this strand of TRA think the case for preservation (of female-only settings) substantially outweighs any case for biological males (including transwomen) to transgress it.

So of course this would extend to female-only settings in prisons as well, without prejudice. Women in prison have been penalised of liberty; they do not deserve to be penalised of the agency and dignity and safety associated with sex-segregated settings, which exist inside prison just as they do outside (in fact more so).

To not extend this concern to female prisoners would be decidedly misogynistic. Well that rings a bell in respect of your views.
Click to expand...


Exactly. The prisons issue has been a major concern from day one, or from the day it became clear that the authorities were actually going to give in to the trans lobby in respect of prisons.

I actually thought the prisons issue would be the one that would peak most people. The idea that women who are locked up and can't get away are being forced to share their accommodation with violent male sex offenders in bad wigs and lipstick should horrify anyone.

I heard a former governor of a woman's prison in Scotland speak on the issue and what she said was heartbreaking. The women in prison have very low self-esteem, and one of the things that was organised to improve this was a monthly fitness prize, to encourage the women to exercise healthily and compete for prizes that were really worth something - little treats that are hard to get in prison. Then this trans guy is admitted to the prison and just swans up and wins it. No contest. And the women are so cowed they had to say all the right things about how they respected "her" and her right to be her "authentic self" when a journalist found out about it and came calling.

But hey, out of sight out of mind. It seems to be the sports issue that's getting the most traction in public discourse.
 
Rolfe said:
Someone found the very item on sale. There is a word for it. It's in relation to a specific genre of Japanese animé porn.
Click to expand...
I think it's fair to say some parents would still complain if a cisgender female wore those things while teaching a class.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom