“Woke”

[RecoveringYuppy]

I'd still like an answer to the question.

 

[arthwollipot]

I'd still like an answer to the question.

Okay. It isn't. You weren't the subject of the comment at all.

 

[Ron Obvious]

Okay. It isn't. You weren't the subject of the comment at all.

So it only applied to me and wasn't meant to be generally true then?

Rather diminishes your point.

 

[arthwollipot]

So it only applied to me and wasn't meant to be generally true then?

Rather diminishes your point.

Saying that one particular person wasn't the subject does not mean that someone else was. To be clear, I was speaking generally and not referring to anybody in particular. I didn't think I'd need to make that quite so explicit, but there it is.

 

[wareyin]

I'm inclined to give almost anyone the benefit of the doubt. I think what bugs me about hearing "woke" is that it sounds like a joke. Like someone deliberately trying to sound like some Deliverance hillbilly. "Hey Maw! That rooster done woked me!" Maybe the popular idea could stand a little rebranding. "Aware" or "Alive" or something. "Alive" sounds too dramatic, though. Lets see if we can hustle up some cash and I'll get a focus group together.

Something tells me that black Atlanta vernacular that I hear is very different to black New Jersey vernacular that you hear.

 

[Shepherd]

wareyin, I think I can help you out here. I've found a recent poll done by Democrats of a U.S. minority voting population which shows that about 40% of them are offended by what some people are now calling them! So, this appears to be some very clear, real world evidence of the exact stuff you are talking about. Obviously, I'm right with you in believing that something really needs to be done about this! It really is disgusting that some people would be so disrespectful to our minority populations!

A recent nationwide survey of Hispanic voters found that 68 percent of those polled call themselves "Hispanic," while 21 percent favor "Latino" or "Latina" to describe their ethnicity. When it comes to the term "Latinx," 40 percent said they find it bothersome or offensive to some degree, while 30 percent said they would be less likely to support a politician that used the word.

https://www.newsweek.com/just-2-per...inx-40-percent-find-it-offensive-poll-1656412

 

[d4m10n]

In the same way that Kiev suddenly became bad and Keeeev became the thing to say.

One of them is the Ukrainian pronunciation, the other Russian. This is an especially meaningful distinction just at the moment. I'd say it goes somewhat beyond virtue signaling into signaling which side one takes in the current conflict.

ETA: I don't know which pronunciation is the wokest, but I suspect it's the newer one.

 

[theprestige]

One of them is the Ukrainian pronunciation, the other Russian. This is an especially meaningful distinction just at the moment. I'd say it goes somewhat beyond virtue signaling into signaling which side one takes in the current conflict.

ETA: I don't know which pronunciation is the wokest, but I suspect it's the newer one.

Personally I have zero tolerance for the proposition that foreign speakers should adjust their foreign accents to accommodate some political divide between different factions of native speakers. A Ukrainian wants me to pronounce Kiev the way born Ukrainians do, he damn well better explain it to me in perfect newscaster English.

 

[d4m10n]

A Ukrainian wants me to pronounce Kiev the way born Ukrainians do, he damn well better explain it to me in perfect newscaster English.

A Russian wants me to pronounce Kiev the way born Russians do, he damn well better explain it to me in perfect newscaster English.

Just testing; turns out it sounds silly either way.

I'm not about to wokescold anyone for saying "Kiev" the old way, but you should be aware that the two pronunciations are rooted in something much more significant than the usual euphemism treadmill look-at-me-I'm-so-hip-with-the-new-lingo ********.

 

[theprestige]

A Russian wants me to pronounce Kiev the way born Russians do, he damn well better explain it to me in perfect newscaster English.

Just testing; turns out it sounds silly either way. : D

Doesn't sound silly to me.

I'm not about to wokescold anyone for saying "Kiev" the old way, but you should be aware that the two pronunciations are rooted in something much more significant than the usual euphemism treadmill look-at-me-I'm-so-hip-with-the-new-lingo ********.

I don't care. It's not about the woke, it's about the scold. Begrudging people their imperfect pronunciation of a foreign language, for any reason, is a peeve of mine.

 

[d4m10n]

Begrudging people their imperfect pronunciation of a foreign language, for any reason, is a peeve of mine.

Who is begrudging? Either way our pronunciation will be imperfect (in ways we likely cannot hear) the question is whether we're trying to pronounce Kyiv or Kiev. The difference is politically meaningful, unlike the upgrade from "negro" to "black" which is merely politically correct.

 

[theprestige]

Who is begrudging? Either way our pronunciation will be imperfect (in ways we likely cannot hear) the question is whether we're trying to pronounce Kyiv or Kiev. The difference is politically meaningful, unlike the upgrade from "negro" to "black" which is merely politically correct.

I'm saying the difference is probably indistinguishable, to a lot of foreign ears, and should not be a thing natives speakers care about, except amongst themselves.

And it should absolutely not be turned into a shibboleth in the west, signaling people who have been awakened to the political pronunciation.

 

[d4m10n]

I'm saying the difference is probably indistinguishable, to a lot of foreign ears, and should not be a thing natives speakers care about, except amongst themselves.

My experience has been that it's readily distinguishable. My Russian-speaking former branch chief came back from a tourist trip to Ukraine in the early 00's (pronounced aughts or else you're a terrible person) and he was saying KEE-ef instead of kee-EV; turns out he'd been schooled by the locals.

And it should absolutely not be turned into a shibboleth in the west, signaling people who have been awakened to the political pronunciation.

Agreed, but then I'm anti-shibboleth in most cases. Substance matters much more than signals, after all.

 

[shuttlt]

Who is begrudging? Either way our pronunciation will be imperfect (in ways we likely cannot hear) the question is whether we're trying to pronounce Kyiv or Kiev. The difference is politically meaningful, unlike the upgrade from "negro" to "black" which is merely politically correct.

The number of English speakers who knew that there was a difference in pronunciation or that they signified one thing or another was close to zero until it was decided that spending 10 years training the Ukraine military, sending them billions of dollars and crippling the economy of Europe wasn't sufficient to show which side we were on and the chicken kievs in my local supermarket needed to become chicken kyivs. The old pronunciation symbolized nothing. The only thing this is demonstrating is how willing we are to change our language based on whatever issue is being pushed in DC and the NYT to turn one thing after another into a demonstration of political orthodoxy.

 

[d4m10n]

The old pronunciation symbolized nothing.

I've noticed you're using the past tense here and I agree. It symbolized nothing prior to the new land war in Europe.

The only thing this is demonstrating is how willing we are to change our language based on whatever issue is being pushed in DC and the NYT to turn one thing after another into a demonstration of political orthodoxy.

I wouldn't count on bipartisan political orthodoxy outlasting 2022, especially since the GOP has previously taken some small steps towards disarming Ukraine.

 

[shuttlt]

I've noticed you're using the past tense here and I agree. It symbolized nothing prior to the new land war in Europe.

No, it symbolized nothing until it started being pushed making it impossible to talk about the war without indicating some support for somebody based on which place names you used. Previously, what.... half a percent of the population knew there was a Ukrainian pronunciation of Kiev. Saying Kiev meant nothing. The war had been going on for a couple of months before the packaging on the chicken kievs changed.

I wouldn't count on bipartisan political orthodoxy outlasting 2022, especially since the GOP has previously taken some small steps towards disarming Ukraine.

Which GOP? The Cheyney GOP, or the Trump GOP?

 

[d4m10n]

Which GOP?

Whichever one got J.D. Gordon put in place.

During platform committee meetings immediately before the Convention, J.D. Gordon, a senior Campaign advisor on policy and national security, diluted a proposed amendment to the Republican Party platform expressing support for providing “lethal” assistance to Ukraine in response to Russian aggression.

Gordon stated that he flagged this amendment because of Trump’s stated position on Ukraine, which Gordon personally heard the candidate say at the March 31 foreign policy meeting — namely, that the Europeans should take primary responsibility for any assistance to Ukraine...

https://www.statesman.com/story/new...ening-diana-denmans-ukraine-plank/5193885007/

 

[shuttlt]

I thought you said they had taken steps to disarming ukraine? That does about as much as changing the spelling on my chicken kiev. When they actually do something meaningful to cut the money off, or stop sending them weapons, or end the sanctions on Russia, let me know. That isn't even a strongly worded letter.

 

[d4m10n]

That isn't even a strongly worded letter.

Political party platforms are traditionally intended to signal the intentions of the parties involved, should the people grant them political power. Other than weakening support for Ukraine (who were already defending against Russian aggression) are you aware of any other changes requested by the Trump Campaign?

 

[shuttlt]

Political party platforms are traditionally intended to signal the intentions of the parties involved, should the people grant them political power. Other than weakening support for Ukraine (who were already defending against Russian aggression) are you aware of any other changes requested by the Trump Campaign?

I don't care. Politicians say all sorts of **** that they know they are never going to do, or do the opposite of once they are in power. You said they took steps towards disarming Ukraine. Did they in fact meaningfully disarm Ukraine?