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Cont: Trans women are not women (IX)

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Ziggurat said:
I don't think this is the most important distinction. Natural hair color is biologically definable. It's got specific associated genes which, absent certain conditions (such as age making it grey) will determine what hair color grows from your follicles. But we don't segregate by hair color, because the difference is a trivial difference.
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I see what you're getting at here, but I think it's a matter of what concessions one is willing to make. Hair color is real and measurable, but the people who do believe in race cannot even agree on how many races exist much less how to measure it scientifically, much as flat-earthers cannot agree on a consensus model of the world. People who worked to segregate by race drew ridiculous dividing lines such that someone like Homer Plessy (⅞ European American by ancestry) counted as a person "of the colored race" for purposes of racial segregation back when they wrote the laws keeping schools, theatres, and railway carriages separate. We cannot even get to the question of whether race is a trivial difference (like hair or eye color) if we cannot sensibly define and measure race.

Vixen said:
We need to establish why we need sex segregation first.
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For the same reason we keep two sets of record books in weightlifting, one for men and another for women.

Vixen said:
Male advantage has been the norm in society so I should be interested in where you got the idea that female segregation is for female advancement.
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How many female weightlifters would have gotten the chance to compete without sex segregation in the sport? I've linked the record books above, if that helps.

Vixen said:
BTW so what if Merager is a sexual criminal.
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So...you asked "Why the need for cruelly excluding Jenny?" without pausing to consider the type of people we're actually hoping to keep out.
 
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Vixen said:
Unlike yourself (and Braverman) I don't see it as a self-evident truth.
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I don't care. Chesterton's fence: you want to get rid of it, then justify that. Furthermore, if you think sex segregation is bad, then the trans issue is really the least of it. Why aren't you advocating for cis men to be allowed access to women's spaces?
 
Vixen said:
So we are back to the segregated bus again.
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No we are not.

The bus was segregated to oppress a minority for bogus reasons. Sports are segregated to protect a minority for very good reasons.

The two are not analogous. The male who is transcending sex segregation in sports is the oppressor.
 
Vixen said:
So we are back to the segregated bus again.
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This argument has been debunked REPEATEDLY. INCLUDING WITHIN THE TIME YOU'VE BEEN ACTIVELY PARTICIPATING IN THIS THREAD.

Do you ever actually read and absorb the responses to your posts, or just scroll through to the bottom?
 
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I mentioned it above. Some of them are. Mainly men who don't particularly want to do the whole make-up and heels thing, but still want access to changing rooms where teenage girls are trying on clothes.

There's a guy on Twitter who looks just like an ordinary bearded bloke in a suit and tie, but gets extramaly angry if someone refers to him as he and boasts that he uses the female toilets all the time.
 
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Rolfe said:
I mentioned it above. Some of them are. Mainly men who don't particularly want to do the whole make-up and heels thing, but still want access to changing rooms where teenage girls are trying on clothes.
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Did you link to any specific examples?
 
Vixen said:
As for sport, the number of people who reach the elite level of Olympic standard, national standard or even local athletics club standard is vanishingly minute. Yes, at those levels, nano-second differences count, as do millimetres in a pole vault or high jump.

Yes, of course there have to be standards so that sport is as fair as possible. If a transgender person is talented at athletics to such high standards, is it fair to prevent them from competing? ISTM to so much fairer to think of a way they can exercise their talents but in a fair way.
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Do you realise that women are being injured by male bodied transwomen in contact sports like rugby? Do you also realise that women athletes like swimmers and runners are being beaten by male bodied transwomen (like Lia Thomas who is untransitioned and has a girlfriend) and having their dreams and ambitions shattered?
 
Okay let's say (hypothetically, for now) Travis Alabanza wants to get into the ladies room.

I'm guessing Vixen will say that it's wrong to deny them access, b/c segregating men and women is much like segregating whites from PoC.

This naturally raises the question of whether anyone should be denied entry and why.
 
Wow, he has certainly ramped up the LARPing of womanface since the pictures that accompanied his first foray into getting a clothes shop that caters mainly for teenage girls to make all its changing rooms mixed-sex. (All he did was weep on Twitter that he'd been discriminated against and that was that. No more girls-only changing rooms.)
 
Rolfe said:
Wow, he has certainly ramped up the LARPing of womanface since the pictures that accompanied his first foray into getting a clothes shop that caters mainly for teenage girls to make all its changing rooms mixed-sex. (All he did was weep on Twitter that he'd been discriminated against and that was that. No more girls-only changing rooms.)
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Women should boycott Topshop (I think that was the store in question).
 
Yes, it was. But they're pretty much all at it now. M&S, who once banned women from coming into the communal part of the men's changing rooms to critique their other half's choice of clothes, because it embarrassed the men in there, now allow any man to strip off in the women's changing rooms.

(I think they were right to ban the women from the men's changing rooms. Obviously.)

Oh, and this. https://lilymaynard.com/it-izznt-funny-eddie-izzard/
 
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Elaedith said:
This is more of a UK one, but 'The end of the world is flat' by Simon Edge is the first novel that I am aware of to satirize gender identity theory and it's promotion by heavily-funded lobby groups. It is actually a satire based on what has happed to Stonewall UK and features heretical True Earth Rejecting Globularists who refuse to accept flat-earth theory.
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Just finished it today; sort of amazed he got that book published in 2021. Fun read, but I'd be embarrassed to say so publicly on Goodreads.

Honestly if you hadn't given me the heads up it wouldn't've been obvious what he was satirizing until the Twitter mobs started in w/ "STFU TERG" :D

Sent from my Nagasaki Shinobi using Tapatalk
 
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Manger Douse said:
It's sadly not uncommon with Trans Rights Advocates on this forum:



http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13663127&postcount=2648

LondonJohn talking about a protest where Trans Rights Advocates gathered outside a rape crisis center to demand rape victims be raped again
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What?

Firstly, in what universe of yours have I stated or implied that rape or death threats are not serious?

Secondly, I was responding to a post which was (correctly) pointing out that in many activist groups there's an extremist element which crosses ethical and legal lines in pursuit of its agenda. I was neither condoning nor excusing such actions - merely pointing out that there is plenty of precedent and giving examples.

And in fact, in the very next sentence of that post of mine, I criticise those activists who publicised JK Rowling's home address (which was actually the live topic under discussion at that point, and not the LA spa incident). If I'm criticising activists for publicising an address, it's quite the leap you're making to conclude that I condone or minimise rape threats or death threats in the course of activism.

You've grossly misrepresented my position on this matter. Oh well. Such is life....
 
theprestige said:
You'd think that by now LJ would have noticed it's not working out for him. If it were, he wouldn't have to keep trying it.
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1) I'm not "trying" anything. I'm merely stating a relevant comparator.

2) As I've pointed out before, I don't care what you think, or about what most of the participants in this thread think. I care about what's happening in the real world. And fortunately, medics and legislative bodies in the real world are increasingly giving transgender people the rights and protections that I believe they're entitled to within society. The adults are sorting it out, while the children play at being "intellectuals" on an obscure internet forum :D
 
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