• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Cont: Trans women are not women (IX)

Status
Not open for further replies.
Good thing we've all decided it's perfectly okay for black males to expose their penises to white teenage girls sitting snug alongside them on buses, despite their mothers' unjustified fears, amirite?

We get this 'analogy' periodically. Deja vu.

As pointed out before, if it's ok for white males to sit next to girls on the bus but not black males, then the issue is clearly race, hence racism. This would be analogous if people thought it was ok for males who identify as men to change in the same rooms as females, but not for males who identify as women. This would then clearly be transphobia. However, nobody has ever argued this. Instead, when it is argued that both males who identify as men/boys and males who identify as woman/girls should not change in female changing rooms, the issue is clearly not being 'trans' but being male. Therefore it is actually analogous to having women-only sections on buses, then arguing that black males only should be allowed to sit in them, then pretending that objections to this are due to race rather than sex.

Of course, some people believe that sex should be replaced by self identified gender identity (similar to having woman-only sections on buses, but where 'woman' is redefined as being unrelated to being female), meaning that women would lose the right to object or react negatively to any male in a women's space. However, nobody ever seems to be able to argue for this from first principles, instead relying on personal attacks and spurious analogies.
 
The multiple fallacies in that analogy were explained and dissected several times earlier in the thread. Continually bringing it up again as if it's a new and devastating gotcha suggests the attention span of the legendary goldfish.

Maybe we should bookmark the most succinct refutations and simply link to them every time this happens.
 
The multiple fallacies in that analogy were explained and dissected several times earlier in the thread. Continually bringing it up again as if it's a new and devastating gotcha suggests the attention span of the legendary goldfish.

Maybe we should bookmark the most succinct refutations and simply link to them every time this happens.

It's an almost religious adherence to ideological dogma. You keep banging on the principles as a matter of faith, because you know logic isn't on your side.

We might as well be talking with YECs. Facts and evidence are ignored.
 
I can think of at least three distinct reasons why comparing sex segregation to racial segregation is a poor analogy.

1) Switching the oppressed group for the oppressor group. Females are analogous to African Americans inasmuch as they've both historically been denied the franchise and other manifestations of equality, but here we've analogized females to European Americans, an oppressor class.

2) Analogizing real differences to unreal ones. Sex entails actual measurable differences based in reproductive adaptation, whereas race is an arbitrary ancestral line-drawing exercise at best.

3) Comparing safe spaces designed as an accommodation to segregated spaces designed to maintain an oppressive hierarchy.

Sent from my CopyPastaMatic using Tapatalk
 
As arguments go, this one:
I hope you're ashamed to have me compare you to racists. Seriously I hope so because that comparison is all I've got and if it doesn't work I'm going to have to go away for a few months and then try it again.
Is pretty freakin' lame.

LondonJohn, don't you have anything better? Don't you at least have some kind of followup or response to the rebuttals? You've had, what? At least a couple years now, to think them over and come up with something better than this weaksauce fringe reset. Is this really as good as it gets, for trans-activism on this board?
 
As arguments go, this one:
I hope you're ashamed to have me compare you to racists. Seriously I hope so because that comparison is all I've got and if it doesn't work I'm going to have to go away for a few months and then try it again.
Is pretty freakin' lame.

LondonJohn, don't you have anything better? Don't you at least have some kind of followup or response to the rebuttals? You've had, what? At least a couple years now, to think them over and come up with something better than this weaksauce fringe reset. Is this really as good as it gets, for trans-activism on this board?
Once someone makes the statement that the position you are arguing for is analogous to racism, the logic behind your position can't stand up to the moral weight of such a statement.
 
Once someone makes the statement that the position you are arguing for is analogous to racism, the logic behind your position can't stand up to the moral weight of such a statement.

You'd think that by now LJ would have noticed it's not working out for him. If it were, he wouldn't have to keep trying it.
 
Cool, now show some empathy for women who don't want to share their locker rooms, shelters, prison cells, sports leagues, and historic moments with (potentially autogynaephiliac) males.


OK, I empathize. In a German unisex sauna, I probably won't be able to tell the difference between a potentially autogynaephiliac male (or female), an actual autogynaephiliac male (or female) and a male (or female) who isn't any of those things. I also don't think that a woman would.
It may be a little embarrassing the first time around, but most people get used to it pretty fast.
Public Sauna in Germany — Are You Ready To Take Everything Off?
American Adventures in a German Sauna: Clothing Verboten (Forbidden)
The links are to articles. I'm sure you can find videos, too.
The exception is uptight Americans. One problem is that Americans much too often think that their idiosyncrasies = human nature! Not true at all!
American society is extremely prudish. Nudity is almost never shown on television (and those channels that can show it seem to relish it a bit too much at times -- see HBO's Game of Thrones), and for many adults, exposing a child to depictions of sex or nudity seems to be far worse than exposing them to depictions of violence, much to European's confusion.
But for most of Germany, the idea of nudity is a complete non-issue.
How Germany has changed me


What's your proposed solution for upholding transgender rights while safeguarding against those risks? Unisex bathrooms? Elision of biological sex altogether? Just pretend there is no risk? Tell those women they'll just have to wait until every other social issue endemic to the human condition has been resolved, and then they'll already be in paradise anyway and won't have to worry about a thing?


Safeguarding against which risks? Worry about what kind of things? Do gendered bathrooms prevent rape? Does discrimination against transexuals mean that women then "won't have to worry about a thing"?
But, yes, unisex bathrooms solve many problems. If they caused more women (or men) to get raped in bathrooms, I'm sure I would have heard about it by now since the trend in Denmark has been towards unisex bathrooms for a considerable number of years.

I have no idea why this is supposed to have something to do with "every other social issue endemic to the human condition," but it sounds interesting!
Could you tell us more about this?
 
Safeguarding against which risks? Worry about what kind of things? Do gendered bathrooms prevent rape? Does discrimination against transexuals mean that women then "won't have to worry about a thing"?
But, yes, unisex bathrooms solve many problems. If they caused more women (or men) to get raped in bathrooms, I'm sure I would have heard about it by now since the trend in Denmark has been towards unisex bathrooms for a considerable number of years.

I don't know about Denmark, but about 4 years ago in the UK a freedom of information act request revealed that two thirds of all sexual attacks at leisure centres and public swimming pools take place in unisex changing rooms.

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-...g-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html
 
We get this 'analogy' periodically.
I just need the one about the white mother in the '50s who did not want her son sitting next to a homosexual boy on the snug seat of a public bus, then I have LondonJohn bingo . . . .

. . . . except I had the same card for the last twenty rounds so it's getting a little boring actually.
 
Do the large majority of women and girls who don't want male genitals on display in the women's changing room deserve some empathy too?

Strawman. Male genitals don't get on display in women's changing rooms. When I was at junior school we all changed our swimming costumes behind a towel. These days there are individual cubicles for changing. Last time I went to a gym in Archway I had complete privacy in the shower. Moot point.

Even the boys were prudish. One of them was mocked by the other boys as he was said to not want to change in front of the others. (He went on to be a paediatric surgeon at a famous hospital in Oxford.)

As an aside my English work colleagues at a Finnish firm were invited to a work bonding event in Finland and reported back that they were mortified when the hosts offered a sauna and took their clothes off. They didn't know what to do with themselves. I expect they wrapped up in a towel.
 
Not yet, or maybe I just haven't noticed. Somehow "the large majority of women and girls who don't want male genitals on display in the women's changing room" doesn't seem to be much of an issue around here. I don't know what is wrong with some people.

And what exactly are "male genitals on display"! Does that mean naked men? Like on the beach? What's the problem?

Or were the genitals amputated and placed in a display case?
I definitely wouldn't want to see that, so I empathize with women who also wouldn't want to see it!

Quite. Some people are happy with nudity others not. My ex whilst he was at Uni rented a room from a physics lecturer who was a naturist. So I'd go round to visit M. at his digs in Guildford, and there would be his landlord completely in the nude hoovering the stairs or whatever. It was his home. Didn't bother me. I just averted my eyes away from his jangly bits.
 
Strawman. Male genitals don't get on display in women's changing rooms. When I was at junior school we all changed our swimming costumes behind a towel. These days there are individual cubicles for changing. Last time I went to a gym in Archway I had complete privacy in the shower. Moot point.

Even the boys were prudish. One of them was mocked by the other boys as he was said to not want to change in front of the others. (He went on to be a paediatric surgeon at a famous hospital in Oxford.)

As an aside my English work colleagues at a Finnish firm were invited to a work bonding event in Finland and reported back that they were mortified when the hosts offered a sauna and took their clothes off. They didn't know what to do with themselves. I expect they wrapped up in a towel.
And yet, supposedly 2/3 of of all sexual attacks at leisure centres and public swimming pools take place in unisex changing rooms. Somebody is presumably exposing their junk.
 
OK, I empathize. In a German unisex sauna, I probably won't be able to tell the difference between a potentially autogynaephiliac male (or female), an actual autogynaephiliac male (or female) and a male (or female) who isn't any of those things. I also don't think that a woman would.
It may be a little embarrassing the first time around, but most people get used to it pretty fast.
Public Sauna in Germany — Are You Ready To Take Everything Off?
American Adventures in a German Sauna: Clothing Verboten (Forbidden)
The links are to articles. I'm sure you can find videos, too.
The exception is uptight Americans. One problem is that Americans much too often think that their idiosyncrasies = human nature! Not true at all!






Safeguarding against which risks? Worry about what kind of things? Do gendered bathrooms prevent rape? Does discrimination against transexuals mean that women then "won't have to worry about a thing"?
But, yes, unisex bathrooms solve many problems. If they caused more women (or men) to get raped in bathrooms, I'm sure I would have heard about it by now since the trend in Denmark has been towards unisex bathrooms for a considerable number of years.

I have no idea why this is supposed to have something to do with "every other social issue endemic to the human condition," but it sounds interesting!
Could you tell us more about this?
Tell me about prisons, sports, and historic moments first.
 
Cool, now show some empathy for women who don't want to share their locker rooms, shelters, prison cells, sports leagues, and historic moments with (potentially autogynaephiliac) males.

What's your proposed solution for upholding transgender rights while safeguarding against those risks? Unisex bathrooms? Elision of biological sex altogether? Just pretend there is no risk? Tell those women they'll just have to wait until every other social issue endemic to the human condition has been resolved, and then they'll already be in paradise anyway and won't have to worry about a thing?

You are fabricating problems where none exist.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom