Merged Russian (genocidal) internal propaganda and goals about Ukraine

[Craig4]

Yeah. They already managed to spin quite a bit of gold with Amnesty International's recent terrible report. It even got a mention to the UN Security Council.

I'd like to know what Amnesty International expected Ukraine to do. Yes, when you're defending your people from genocide, your forces will be close to the people they are protecting. That's kind of the point. We see what happens to Ukrainian civilians in Russian occupied areas. You can't keep your people from being murdered by Russians if you're not there killing Russians.

 

[Michel H]

If the Russians allow inspectors in, said inspectors will see exactly what the Russians want them to see. Letting inspectors in wouldn't matter because it's Russia that occupies the power plant. It will be like the Crimea fake referendums. They'll orchestrate the fiction of responsibility, or at least enough of one to spin the inspection results. Russia lacks integrity and can't be trusted.

If the Russians allow inspectors in, said inspectors will see exactly what the Russians want them to see.

If the Russians limit the ability of international inspectors to do their job for public safety, the inspectors will probably complain about this, and this will be bad for the public image of Russia.

Actually, I think that the IAEA should consider visiting the plant even without Ukrainian approval, if it turns out to be impossible to obtain.

CNN said:

Russia annexed Crimea from Ukraine in 2014, after Russian President Vladimir Putin sent military forces into what was then an autonomous region of southern Ukraine with strong Russian loyalties.

(https://edition.cnn.com/2022/08/11/...ions-russian-warplanes-intl-hnk-ml/index.html)

My impression is that Ukraine is trying to impose its rule to Crimea and the two Donbass republics, where people speak a different language and where Ukraine is not liked.

I don't think that the West should support such a undertaking, which is very costly for Ukraine itself and for the West, in many senses.

One might argue that, before this year's invasion, the Russians (not the Ukrainians) were the true freedom fighters, supporting the local people, while the West came with many sanctions.

It is possible that the U.S. is using Ukraine as a pretext to try to attack and weaken Russia, perceived as a global rival.

 

[The Don]

My impression is that Ukraine is trying to impose its rule to Crimea and the two Donbass republics, where people speak a different language and where Ukraine is not liked.

And as has been pointed out repeatedly, your impression is wrong and is based on flawed premises.

 

[Dave Rogers]

If the Russians limit the ability of international inspectors to do their job for public safety, the inspectors will probably complain about this, and this will be bad for the public image of Russia.

I love the implied suggestion that somehow the public image of Russia could get any worse.

Dave

 

[Michel H]

I love the implied suggestion that somehow the public image of Russia could get any worse.

Dave

When people see that Russia is in favor of international nuclear inspections while Ukraine is against them (see post #213), perhaps some of them (in neutral countries) will conclude that Russia (sometimes) defends a civilized and intelligent world order, while Ukraine is kind of an agent of U.S. violence, barbarism and stupidity.

 

[The Don]

When people see that Russia is in favor of international nuclear inspections while Ukraine is against them (see post #213), perhaps some of them (in neutral countries) will conclude that Russia (sometimes) defends a civilized and intelligent world order, while Ukraine is kind of an agent of U.S. violence, barbarism and stupidity.

Russia is in favour of IAEA inspections in the same way that Donald Trump is in favour of having the details of the Mar-a-Lago FBI warrant released.

 

[SpitfireIX]

When people see that Russia is in favor of international nuclear inspections while Ukraine is against them (see post #213), perhaps some of them (in neutral countries) will conclude that Russia (sometimes) defends a civilized and intelligent world order, while Ukraine is kind of an agent of U.S. violence, barbarism and stupidity.

From https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...helling-ukraine-nuclear-plant-un-iaea-russia/The Washington Post, August 8:

A spokesman for Ukraine’s Foreign Affairs Ministry, Oleg Nikolenko, also told The Washington Post that Kyiv supports a U.N. team coming to the nuclear site “as soon as possible.”

“We want the watchdog to come to the power plant and check on the status to verify how the nuclear materials are being used,” he said. “And we also want the organization to prepare a report about the violations of nuclear security that Russia is committing in Zaporizhzhia.”​

You really shouldn't use Wikipedia as a source. The Ukrainian Foreign Ministry articulates Ukraine's foreign policy, not Energoatom. And you also seem not to have noticed (or cared) that no citation was provided for the claim that Energoatom opposes an inspection. Fail.

As for the hilited, there aren't enough laughing dogs to do it justice.

 

[Craig4]

If the Russians limit the ability of international inspectors to do their job for public safety, the inspectors will probably complain about this, and this will be bad for the public image of Russia.

Actually, I think that the IAEA should consider visiting the plant even without Ukrainian approval, if it turns out to be impossible to obtain.

CNN said:

(https://edition.cnn.com/2022/08/11/...ions-russian-warplanes-intl-hnk-ml/index.html)

My impression is that Ukraine is trying to impose its rule to Crimea and the two Donbass republics, where people speak a different language and where Ukraine is not liked.

I don't think that the West should support such a undertaking, which is very costly for Ukraine itself and for the West, in many senses.

One might argue that, before this year's invasion, the Russians (not the Ukrainians) were the true freedom fighters, supporting the local people, while the West came with many sanctions.

It is possible that the U.S. is using Ukraine as a pretext to try to attack and weaken Russia, perceived as a global rival.

Ukraine has every right to impose its rule on their territory. Crimea is Ukraine without regard to Russian claims or CNN reporting. Period. They have ever right to wage war on Russians occupying their territory and expel the invader. The also have a right to prosecute Ukrainians who collaborate with the foreign hostile power unlawfully occupying their territory. Under the Law of Armed Conflict they also have a right to assassinate their own citizens aiding the enemy occupier.

Weakening Russian is our stated goal; our Secretary of Defense said so. Russia has demonstrated they can be trusted to remain within their borders and now we're equipping Ukraine to make sure it will be decades before they can threaten their neighbors again. All Russia had to do to avoid this was not wage a war of aggression and occupation. Nearly every other country on Earth is manages to do this.

 

[Craig4]

When people see that Russia is in favor of international nuclear inspections while Ukraine is against them (see post #213), perhaps some of them (in neutral countries) will conclude that Russia (sometimes) defends a civilized and intelligent world order, while Ukraine is kind of an agent of U.S. violence, barbarism and stupidity.

Who crossed whose border? Ukraine only launched attacks into Russia after Russia invaded (Belgorad) and only to disrupt the Russian invasion. They've only attacked Russian and not Belorussian territory and only targets threatening them.

Obviously the attack on the Crimean airbase doesn't count as an attack on Russian territory because Crimea isn't part of Russia.

 

[Aridas]

You really shouldn't use Wikipedia as a source. The Ukrainian Foreign Ministry articulates Ukraine's foreign policy, not Energoatom. And you also seem not to have noticed (or cared) that no citation was provided for the claim that Energoatom opposes an inspection. Fail.

Sole source, at least. Wikipedia is usually a pretty good start, though, of course, and totally fine for normal usage. Either way, though, that's a general thing and fairly certainly not actually particularly meaningful here. Michel H has a habit of engaging in extreme cherry-picking and spin. In the real world, there's very little that is truly black and white and most honest sources acknowledge that. That certain motivated people seize upon some minor triviality noted correctly in a source and use/twist it wildly out of context to create or support fallacy is not actually an indictment of the source.

As for the hilited, there aren't enough laughing dogs to do it justice.

Well... to play a bit of a Devil's Advocate, I have no problem with the claim that "Russia (sometimes) defends a civilized and intelligent world order." If you cherry pick, that "(sometimes)" is very likely true, even if their national intentions likely have nothing to do with that even in many of the cases that can be cherry picked where they happen to do so. The implication that such applies to what's going on in Ukraine and the Ukraine bit, of course, is worthy of nothing more than laughing dogs.

 

[Trebuchet]

https://www.thedailybeast.com/putins-pals-furious-younger-russians-dont-want-to-die-in-ukraine

I'd be curious to know if injured and maimed soldiers returning home have anything to do with military aged men avoiding service....

Certainly had an effect on my generation in the USA 50-60 years ago.

 

[jimbob]

https://www.thedailybeast.com/putins-pals-furious-younger-russians-dont-want-to-die-in-ukraine

I'd be curious to know if injured and maimed soldiers returning home have anything to do with military aged men avoiding service. Obviously, we don't know much about how common it is to see injured or disfigured returning soldiers on the streets in Russian communities due to Kremlin censorship. It would be good to know what factors keep young Russians from joining their military. This one of Putin's lapdogs seems to have let slip the problem that conscription avoidance is a real problem for Russia.

It's probably safe to assume that younger people get more factual news from outside Russia than other demographics. Young people are likely better able to use VPNs and defeat Russian web censorship so they may have more of an idea of what is really happening in Ukraine.

It would be nice though to have an idea of how often younger people see returning wounded and how much of a factor that is in depressing conscription.

the flipside of this.

Don't treat our children like dogs!”. Russia's military prosecutor's hacked archive reveals true state of affairs at the front

The Insider has in its possession an archive of complaints addressed to the Russian military prosecutor's office, which reflects the true state of affairs during the war in Ukraine. Conscripts have been deceived or coerced into the war zone, soldiers have not been provided with normal food or medical care, contract servicemen have been deliberately violating every military regulation in order to be dismissed from service, and parents cannot obtain any information on whether their children have been taken prisoner or killed in action. From the Russian citizens' complaints one can also learn about the looting and atrocities perpetrated by Russian soldiers.

 

[Craig4]

the flipside of this.

Don't treat our children like dogs!”. Russia's military prosecutor's hacked archive reveals true state of affairs at the front

Wow, I loved the one about the mother who didn't want to find out if her son was alive so she could keep his death benefit. If I was her son, I'd so remember that when I picked out her nursing home.

 

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Wow, I loved the one about the mother who didn't want to find out if her son was alive so she could keep his death benefit. If I was her son, I'd so remember that when I picked out her nursing home.

Or, you can view it as en example of what crushing poverty can do to people.

 

[Craig4]

With you-know-who controlling the TV news in Russia it's a pretty safe bet that the story will not be used as a warning to end the war. It'll be used as a rallying cry to Do Something about those dreadful Ukrainian Nazis bombarding innocent little child just playing on the beach.

A few decades ago when I worked for Sears, the company taught us that the average person tells six people about a negative experience. The word of mouth will probably keep Russians from vacationing in occupied Ukraine anymore.

 

[ginjawarrior]

Yes, it seems that, at the present time, it is Ukraine which is refusing an international inspection of the plant (if you have some other information, feel free to supply it):

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaporizhzhia_Nuclear_Power_Plant#2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine)
[/url].

The doublespeak, it hurts...
This is the BBC article that Wikipedia was referencing

In June, Ukraine's state nuclear company said Ukraine had not invited the IAEA - and any visit would legitimise Russia's presence there.

It's gone from "not invited" to "opposed" to "refused"

Now if someone steals your car do you think it's still your responsibility to get mandatory road safety checks on the car that's no longer in your possession?

Russia is only one stopping inspection

 

[Michel H]

The BBC has, once again, used its very "peculiar" map of southern Ukraine and Crimea, which could raise some eyebrows, see bottom of this article: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62613013.

For the actual map of Crimea, see this map: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea#/media/File:Map_of_the_Crimea.png, provided by wikipedia.

The difference is obvious, the BBC seems to be trying to give its millions of readers the impression that Crimea should be part of Ukraine because of a long common border, when, in fact, the Crimean peninsula is almost an island, being naturally connected to the mainland only through the narrow Isthmus of Perekop:

The peninsula is almost entirely surrounded by both the Black Sea and the smaller Sea of Azov; it is located south of Kherson Oblast (which is partially occupied by Russia) in Ukraine, to which it is connected by the Isthmus of Perekop, and west of Krasnodar Krai in Russia, from which it is separated by the Strait of Kerch though linked by the Crimean Bridge since 2018.

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea)

 

[Mike!]

The BBC has, once again, used its very "peculiar" map of southern Ukraine and Crimea, which could raise some eyebrows, see bottom of this article: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62613013.

For the actual map of Crimea, see this map: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea#/media/File:Map_of_the_Crimea.png, provided by wikipedia.

The difference is obvious, the BBC seems to be trying to give its millions of readers the impression that Crimea should be part of Ukraine because of a long common border, when, in fact, the Crimean peninsula is almost an island, being naturally connected to the mainland only through the narrow Isthmus of Perekop:

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea)

Except it's not an island at all, it's a peninsula, which isn't anything like an island since it isn't 100% surrounded by water.
But you knew that already, didn't you, so what was the point of this commentary?

 

[Michel H]

Except it's not an island at all, it's a peninsula, which isn't anything like an island since it isn't 100% surrounded by water.
But you knew that already, didn't you, so what was the point of this commentary?

Crimea is almost an island, but the BBC wanted to make it look as if it has a strong connection to mainland Ukraine, and so they (apparently) manipulated their image to that end, removing all the water between the peninsula and mainland Ukraine.

 

[Mike!]

Crimea is almost an island, but the BBC wanted to make it look as if it has a strong connection to mainland Ukraine, and so they (apparently) manipulated their image to that end, removing all the water between the peninsula and mainland Ukraine.

Still nowhere near being an island. Such desperate claims seem, desperate.