Merged Russian (genocidal) internal propaganda and goals about Ukraine

[dudalb]

Were those referendums carried out in a free and fair way ?
No, there was mass voter intimidation

Did the results of those referendums reflect the actual votes cast ?
Who knows, there was no independent oversight, but Russia has plenty of prior form of this kind of thing

Was there a mass movement of people just prior to those referendums which would have skewed the results ?
Yes, there was ethnic cleansing on an industrial scale

Bearing that in mind, it's hardly surprising the results turned out the way they did.



And your point is ?



You could argue such a thing but it would be a spurious argument aimed at justifying the illegal actions of the Moscow regime.



Why care about something completely made up when the are real crimes against humanity committed by Russia to consider ?

Give up, we are dealing with a Putin fanboy here who is masqurading as being "objective" and failing badly.

 

[Craig4]

We know that referendums took place in Crimea, and in the two people's republics, and that the local pro-Russian governments won these referendums (with big majorities).

Of course, some people did vote for Kiev, but there are (or were) certainly some pro-Moscow people in Russian-speaking areas of Ukraine where no referendum happened as well (in Kharkiv, for example).

One might argue that the Zelensky government (and its predecessors) are committing a crime against humanity (through various economic sanctions and direct military action) by trying to impose their rule in some regions (Crimea, for example) where Kiev is deeply rejected.

Nobody (or almost nobody) in the West seems to care about that, yet democracy is important.

Where were the international observers? Is there anyone untainted by an association with Russia making this claim. Why assume this is one of the vanishingly rare times the Russians tell anyone the truth? What have Putin and his gangsters done to make you think you can take their word for the results? Russians simply can't be trusted.

 

[Michel H]

Where were the international observers? Is there anyone untainted by an association with Russia making this claim. Why assume this is one of the vanishingly rare times the Russians tell anyone the truth? What have Putin and his gangsters done to make you think you can take their word for the results? Russians simply can't be trusted.

As far as I know, there were international observers in Crimea, but not in Donbass (in the Donetsk and Luhansk people's republics):

International Observers Find Crimean Referendum Strongly and Voluntarily Supported by the Crimean People
A group of international observers from Israel, Spain, Italy, USA, UK, Latvia, Moldova and Serbia, which were invited by the Central Electoral Commission of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea, visited the largest cities of Crimea - Simferopol, Yalta, Evpatoria, Alushta, Saki, as well as many villages in the countryside.

​All observers unanimously noted that the referendum was held in full compliance with international standards.

(https://www.prnewswire.com/news-rel...upported-by-the-crimean-people-250658201.html).

In Donbass,

An opinion poll that was taken on the day of the referendum and the day before by a correspondent of the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, The Washington Post, and five other media outlets found that of those people who intended to vote, 94.8% would vote for independence. The poll did not claim to have scientific precision, but was carried out to get a basis from which to judge the outcome of the referendum, given that independent observers were not present to monitor it.

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Donbas_status_referendums#Public_opinion)

I don't think it is possible to find a solution to the current serious crisis in Ukraine by just ignoring what the local people say. This is the mistake that Kiev and its Western backers have been making since 2014, not hesitating to inflict absurd heavy sanctions on Russia.

Now, we see the consequences.

Note that I don't want to say that Russia is not committing crimes too, but these crimes occur in a certain context, which makes them more understandable.

 

[The Don]

As far as I know, there were international observers in Crimea, but not in Donbass (in the Donetsk and Luhansk people's republics):

(https://www.prnewswire.com/news-rel...upported-by-the-crimean-people-250658201.html)..

Read the report. These were not independent international observers, they were "useful idiots" invited by the Russians.

In Donbass,

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Donbas_status_referendums#Public_opinion)

I don't think it is possible to find a solution to the current serious crisis in Ukraine by just ignoring what the local people say. This is the mistake that Kiev and its Western backers have been making since 2014, not hesitating to inflict absurd heavy sanctions on Russia.

Who knows what the local people say when the referendums were not free and fair and where the population had been subject to ethnic cleansing.

Now, we see the consequences.

Note that I don't want to say that Russia is not committing crimes too, but these crimes occur in a certain context, which makes them more understandable.

Yes, and we also understand that you think the Nazis were provoked.

 

[Michel H]

Read the report. These were not independent international observers, they were "useful idiots" invited by the Russians.



Who knows what the local people say when the referendums were not free and fair and where the population had been subject to ethnic cleansing.



Yes, and we also understand that you think the Nazis were provoked.

Yes, I guess one can say that. Declaring war on Germany in 1939 (like the UK and France did) was definitely some provocation of a very serious nature.

We also know what followed, for the Jews and many others.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

I don't think it is possible to find a solution to the current serious crisis in Ukraine by just ignoring what the local people say.

You posted Wikipedia links showing 3/4 of the local people opposed secession or joining Russia. But now Donbass is full of Russian invaders. That's nothing to do with what the local population want and everything to do with what Vladimir Putin wants.

You criticise Kyiv's mistakes but you find Russia's crimes understandable. It seems you hold Russia to a very different standard. Why do you do that?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

... Declaring war on Germany in 1939 (like the UK and France did) was definitely some provocation of a very serious nature.

That may be the single stupidest analysis of the outbreak of war that has ever been written. There the Nazis were, just peacefully murdering their way across Poland when suddenly out of nowhere...

 

[Michel H]

You criticise Kyiv's mistakes but you find Russia's crimes understandable. It seems you hold Russia to a very different standard. Why do you do that?

I believe that, although Ukraine's crimes my seem less violent than those committed by Russia, they might actually be, in a sense, worse, because Ukraine started this crisis in 2014 by using military force against the two Donbass republics, by refusing to grant them self-governance (within Ukraine) as specified by the Minsk agreements, and imposing (with its Western allies) various (unjustified) economic sanctions on Crimea and Russia.

The West and Ukraine could probably spare themselves a lot of trouble by being less arrogant and by showing some respect for Russia, and its points of view and analyses (the same is true for their policies with respect to China by the way, something which is being much talked about these days after Pelosi's visit to Taiwan).

It is possible to achieve much more by showing some humility than by constantly throwing insults around.

 

[jimbob]

I believe that, although Ukraine's crimes my seem less violent than those committed by Russia, they might actually be, in a sense, worse, because Ukraine started this crisis in 2014 by using military force against the two Donbass republics, by refusing to grant them self-governance (within Ukraine) as specified by the Minsk agreements, and imposing (with its Western allies) various (unjustified) economic sanctions on Crimea and Russia.

The West and Ukraine could probably spare themselves a lot of trouble by being less arrogant and by showing some respect for Russia, and its points of view and analyses (the same is true for their policies with respect to China by the way, something which is being much talked about these days after Pelosi's visit to Taiwan).

It is possible to achieve much more by showing some humility than by constantly throwing insults around.

Well that's the second most stupid thing I have seen on this page

 

[eerok]

[blather elided]

As long as Russia works to bully, invade, murder, rape, and destroy the sovereign nations around it, the West will work to stop them. If you have a problem with that, it's your problem.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

I believe that [...] Ukraine started this crisis in 2014

I think you do believe that. Just as you believe that Britain and France started another crisis in 1939.

It's as if you give monstrous regimes a pass because <shrug> monsters gonna monster, having no agency to restrain themselves, and somehow it's entirely everyone else's responsibility to give the beast what it wants in the hope it doesn't kill us.

 

[Craig4]

No:

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum#Post-referendum_polls)

Watch the first two minutes of this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QOPpUQKDbQ.

Simplistic views about Russia and the government of Russia don't help Ukraine.

No poll taken in Crimea could be valid with Russian occupying military and security services present. What faith could anyone have that the occupiers weren't able to see results or that the poll wasn't being done to identify loyal Ukrainians in the occupied territories?

 

[Michel H]

No poll taken in Crimea could be valid with Russian occupying military and security services present. What faith could anyone have that the occupiers weren't able to see results or that the poll wasn't being done to identify loyal Ukrainians in the occupied territories?

It seems to me there were some unidentified Russian soldiers without insignia in the voting rooms, I don't see how this should have been a major problem.

It is, of course, always possible to invent some extremely far-fetched excuses to reject some results you don't like, this should not convince reasonable people (there were international observers in Crimea).

I mentioned results obtained by a German polling organization, and an interview of two ladies by a well known British journalist (Steven Rosenberg) in Crimea. These two ladies had no reason to be scared.

Ukraine doesn't seem to be asking for a new referendum in Crimea. Why? Probably because they know very well they would lose it. Ukraine seems to have zero interest in democracy, and the West supports these people.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

It is, of course, always possible to invent some extremely far-fetched excuses to reject some results you don't like

Which reminds me, you haven't yet offered any opinion on whether we should regard the 2014 counter-referendum in Donbas as equally valid to the separatist ones you prefer to talk about.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Donbas_status_referendums#Counter-referendum

 

[Michel H]

Which reminds me, you haven't yet offered any opinion on whether we should regard the 2014 counter-referendum in Donbas as equally valid to the separatist ones you prefer to talk about.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Donbas_status_referendums#Counter-referendum

It seems to me the term "counter-referendum" is slightly misleading, because (fortunately) the "Donetsk people's republic referendum" on the one hand, and the so-called "counter-referendum" seem to apply to different territories: the people's republic referendum took place (roughly) in the south-east of the Ukrainian Donetsk oblast, while the counter-referendum took place in the north-western part of the Ukrainian Donetsk oblast (according to Ukraine).

Having said this, I respect the results of the counter-referendum too, just the way I respect the results of the republic's referendum. I don't feel I know enough to be able to distinguish quality-wise. What this "counter-referendum" means, in my opinion, is that an effort by the Donetsk people's republic to extend the territory it controls nort-west has no democratic legitimacy.

When conflicts can be solved by using referendums, we are still in a rather favorable situation. Russia's February 24 invasion has opened a much worse era, where pro-Ukrainian citizens flee advancing Russian troops (and are invited to do so by their government). This sad situation is partly caused, in my opinion, by Ukraine's stubborn refusal to cede any territory in a rational way, and by its efforts to join NATO (https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/nat...s-alliance-for-years-what-stopped-it/2813488/).

I believe responsible politicians should spend less time voting money for weapons and war, less time voting for sanctions against their (imagined or real) enemies which destroy their own countries economically, and more time redrawing and rationalizing borders, in a way which is conducive to peace.

 

[Craig4]

It seems to me there were some unidentified Russian soldiers without insignia in the voting rooms, I don't see how this should have been a major problem.

It is, of course, always possible to invent some extremely far-fetched excuses to reject some results you don't like, this should not convince reasonable people (there were international observers in Crimea).

I mentioned results obtained by a German polling organization, and an interview of two ladies by a well known British journalist (Steven Rosenberg) in Crimea. These two ladies had no reason to be scared.

Ukraine doesn't seem to be asking for a new referendum in Crimea. Why? Probably because they know very well they would lose it. Ukraine seems to have zero interest in democracy, and the West supports these people.

The ladies were in Russian occupied Ukrainian Crimea. They had every reason to be scared. We've seen what their kind do to their own people. Ukrainians living under enemy occupation are likely even more at risk. There were no observer missions in Crimea. OSCE did not have observers. The Carter Center wasn't there. There wasn't a UN mandate for an observer mission. There were a few paid lap dogs of the Russians who showed up and did as they were told. The "observers" were invited by Russians so they carry the same presumption of dishonesty as if they were officers of the Russian state.

 

[Michel H]

The ladies were in Russian occupied Ukrainian Crimea. They had every reason to be scared.

I really did not expect you would say this. These two ladies seem relaxed and sincere to me (and almost laughing), and it is part of an experienced journalist's job to try to convince people to say what they really believe, in conducting interviews. If necessary, interviews can be conducted anonymously.

You might think that, as a Belgian citizen, I should always say things supportive and flattering for my own government, for fear of terrible reprisals if I dared to criticize. But I don't. Sometimes (not always) I criticize because I feel that my own government is not doing the best thing for its own citizens, and I feel it is my duty (and perhaps also my interest) to voice my disapproval.

This is how democracy works (and Russia is a democracy too, even if it is far from perfect).

Ukraine's interim President Olexandr Turchynov has admitted many in the east supported pro-Russian militants

(https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27360146)

 

[Craig4]

I really did not expect you would say this. These two ladies seem relaxed and sincere to me (and almost laughing), and it is part of an experienced journalist's job to try to convince people to say what they really believe, in conducting interviews. If necessary, interviews can be conducted anonymously.

You might think that, as a Belgian citizen, I should always say things supportive and flattering for my own government, for fear of terrible reprisals if I dared to criticize. But I don't. Sometimes (not always) I criticize because I feel that my own government is not doing the best thing for its own citizens, and I feel it is my duty (and perhaps also my interest) to voice my disapproval.

This is how democracy works (and Russia is a democracy too, even if it is far from perfect).


(https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27360146)

When was the last time a Belgian opposition party member had a by-product of nuclear weapons production shoved up his nose?

 

[Michel H]

When was the last time a Belgian opposition party member had a by-product of nuclear weapons production shoved up his nose?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Alexander_Litvinenko

Later that night, Lumumba was driven to an isolated spot where, according to reports, three firing squads had been assembled and commanded by Belgian contract officer Julien Gat.[143]

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrice_Lumumba#Belgian_involvement)

 

[Craig4]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Alexander_Litvinenko


(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrice_Lumumba#Belgian_involvement)

How many governments ago was that?