Merged Russian (genocidal) internal propaganda and goals about Ukraine

[Jimbo07]

Yes, they could've attacked Taiwan many many times before, this is nothing new. What is new is China may look at the response by the West on Russia's little special military operation and make the totally rational decision that a war against Taiwan will cost them far more than it will gain them.

Yeah, and looking at the performance of Russian kit, and looking at the value of Russia having your back, etc.

 

[dudalb]

Nope,. If they do then Russia will salami slice and ethnically cleanse their way across the country.

But you are a fan of it happening in the 30s and 40s so it's no surprise that you are a fan of it now.

Its' called "THe Sudatenland strategy".
Czechlsovakia ceded...due to pressure from Britian under Chamberlain and France the Sudentenland to Germany whereupon Hilter promised that he had made his last territorial demand in Europe, and six months later he took over what was left of Czechoslovakia.
And since when has Putin shown that he can be trusted about ANYTHING?

 

[dudalb]

FTFY

Let's face it, the Soviet Union and the Russian Empire were pretty much the same thing under different lables with different rhetoric to justify it.

 

[dudalb]

As soon as we run out of trees we're going to "liberate" our English speaking neighbors in Canada. But it's a secret, so don't mention anything to them.

"ANd here is footage of our boys keeping the peace in Newly Annexed Canada"

Rememver that bit from the prologue to the first Fallout Game.....

 

[dudalb]

Most Russian speaking Ukrainians want nothing to do with being part of Russia.

It's amazing how many Slavic countires hate and fear Russia, self procliamied Mother of all Slavic nations.

 

[Border Reiver]

"ANd here is footage of our boys keeping the peace in Newly Annexed Canada"

Rememver that bit from the prologue to the first Fallout Game.....

Activate Defence Scheme No. 1

 

[Michel H]

Most Russian speaking Ukrainians want nothing to do with being part of Russia.

Is this true?

Let's see:
Crimea population: 2,400,000
Donetsk People's Republic: 2,300,000 (in 2018)
Luhansk People's Republic: 1,400,000 (in 2017)
Total: about 6.1 million

On the other hand, it is estimated that about 30% of Ukraine's population are native Russian speakers: 0.3 x 44 million = 13.2 million.

So, it would seem that a little less than half of Russian speakers in Ukraine likes Russia. Most of the other half (in Kharkiv, for example) probably now hates Russia, because of the current "special military operation", which is particularly painful to them.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

You seem to be presuming that everyone still alive in the Donbas and Crimea loves Russia. That's ludicrous.

Also, consider that almost the entire population of Ireland speaks English. Does that mean they want England to reconquer their country? Almost the entire population of Scotland speaks English. If Scotland voted for independence from the UK (just as Ukraine voted overwhelmingly for independence in 1991) would England have the right to invade?

Of course not. It's ridiculous, and your constantly pretending that speaking Russian is an indication that a Ukrainian is pro-Russian is similarly specious, nonsensical and untrue.

 

[Michel H]

You seem to be presuming that everyone still alive in the Donbas and Crimea loves Russia. That's ludicrous.

Also, consider that almost the entire population of Ireland speaks English. Does that mean they want England to reconquer their country? Almost the entire population of Scotland speaks English. If Scotland voted for independence from the UK (just as Ukraine voted overwhelmingly for independence in 1991) would England have the right to invade?

Of course not. It's ridiculous, and your constantly pretending that speaking Russian is an indication that a Ukrainian is pro-Russian is similarly specious, nonsensical and untrue.

You seem to be presuming that everyone still alive in the Donbas and Crimea loves Russia. That's ludicrous.

There have been referendums, in Crimea and in the people's republics, which supported government policies.

See, for example: http://duma.gov.ru/en/news/54258/ (for a Russian viewpoint).
And:

Ukraine rebels hold referendums in Donetsk and Luhansk
Published 11 May 2014
...
Ukraine's interim President Olexandr Turchynov has admitted many in the east supported pro-Russian militants, but warned the referendums were "a step towards the abyss".

(https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27360146)


I see no reason to believe that Russia is always "against the people" (in Ukraine).

Of course not. It's ridiculous, and your constantly pretending that speaking Russian is an indication that a Ukrainian is pro-Russian is similarly specious, nonsensical and untrue.

This is actually not what I said:

So, it would seem that a little less than half of Russian speakers in Ukraine likes Russia. Most of the other half (in Kharkiv, for example) probably now hates Russia, because of the current "special military operation", which is particularly painful to them.

 

[eerok]

There have been referendums, in Crimea and in the people's republics, which supported government policies.

These were fraudulent, and their occupation of Crimea and Donbas is illegal.

I see no reason to believe that Russia is always "against the people" (in Ukraine)

Then you're not paying attention. They're actively trying to erase Ukraine as a nation and a culture, and Ukrainians as a people.

 

[Michel H]

These were fraudulent, and their occupation of Crimea and Donbas is illegal.

No:

According to a poll of the Crimeans by the Ukrainian branch of Germany's biggest market research organization, GfK, on January 16–22, 2015: "Eighty-two percent of those polled said they fully supported Crimea's inclusion in Russia, and another 11 percent expressed partial support. Only 4 percent spoke out against it.

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum#Post-referendum_polls)

Watch the first two minutes of this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QOPpUQKDbQ.

Simplistic views about Russia and the government of Russia don't help Ukraine.

 

[eerok]

No:

The polls were different before Russia invaded Crimea and terrorized Ukrainians. In any case, Ukraine's internal matters are not the legitimate concern of Russia, whose aggression against a sovereign nation was illegal and remains so.

Simplistic views about Russia and the government of Russia don't help Ukraine.

Simple things can be true. Russia is the villain here, and you are willfully blind.

I see no evidence that you want to help Ukraine. If they bend the knee to Russia, they're finished as a nation, culture, and people.

 

[Andy_Ross]

No:

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum#Post-referendum_polls)

Watch the first two minutes of this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QOPpUQKDbQ.

Simplistic views about Russia and the government of Russia don't help Ukraine.

If you don't support Russia you go to jail and get 're-educated' or just disappear and turn up dead in a hole in the ground along with the other people that didn't support Russia.

It's an old system but it works.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

This is actually not what I said:

You said there were 6.1 million people in Donetsk, Luhansk and Crimea before the war, and that there were 13.2 million native Russian speakers in all of Ukraine.

Somehow these two statistics led you to infer "a little less than half of Russian speakers in Ukraine likes Russia". How did you reach that conclusion? What calculation did you perform?

 

[Michel H]

You said there were 6.1 million people in Donetsk, Luhansk and Crimea before the war, and that there were 13.2 million native Russian speakers in all of Ukraine.

Somehow these two statistics led you to infer "a little less than half of Russian speakers in Ukraine likes Russia". How did you reach that conclusion? What calculation did you perform?

We know that referendums took place in Crimea, and in the two people's republics, and that the local pro-Russian governments won these referendums (with big majorities).

Of course, some people did vote for Kiev, but there are (or were) certainly some pro-Moscow people in Russian-speaking areas of Ukraine where no referendum happened as well (in Kharkiv, for example).

One might argue that the Zelensky government (and its predecessors) are committing a crime against humanity (through various economic sanctions and direct military action) by trying to impose their rule in some regions (Crimea, for example) where Kiev is deeply rejected.

Nobody (or almost nobody) in the West seems to care about that, yet democracy is important.

 

[The Don]

We know that referendums took place in Crimea, and in the two people's republics, and that the local pro-Russian governments won these referendums (with big majorities).

Were those referendums carried out in a free and fair way ?
No, there was mass voter intimidation

Did the results of those referendums reflect the actual votes cast ?
Who knows, there was no independent oversight, but Russia has plenty of prior form of this kind of thing

Was there a mass movement of people just prior to those referendums which would have skewed the results ?
Yes, there was ethnic cleansing on an industrial scale

Bearing that in mind, it's hardly surprising the results turned out the way they did.

Of course, some people did vote for Kiev, but there are (or were) certainly some pro-Moscow people in Russian-speaking areas of Ukraine where no referendum happened as well (in Kharkiv, for example).

And your point is ?

One might argue that the Zelensky government (and its predecessors) are committing a crime against humanity (through various economic sanctions and direct military action) by trying to impose their rule in some regions (Crimea, for example) where Kiev is deeply rejected.

You could argue such a thing but it would be a spurious argument aimed at justifying the illegal actions of the Moscow regime.

Nobody (or almost nobody) in the West seems to care about that, yet democracy is important.

Why care about something completely made up when the are real crimes against humanity committed by Russia to consider ?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

We know that referendums took place in Crimea, and in the two people's republics, and that the local pro-Russian governments won these referendums (with big majorities).

Of course, some people did vote for Kiev, but ...

Nobody voted for Russia. The referendums in Donetsk and Luhansk were for or against independence from Kiev. Not dependence on Russia.

And there was a counter-referendum held on the same day, in which a substantial part of Western Donetsk and many cities in Donetsk and Luhansk voted yes to: "Are you for maintaining your territorial community within Ukraine and reunification with the Dnipropetrovsk Oblast?".

Mariupol, for example, is one of the cities which voted "yes" to that. Now how about you tell me why you think the Russian invaders have some mandate to smash the hell out of that city and occupy its ruins.

After that perhaps we can deal with Ukraine's 1991 vote overwhelmingly to become an independent country, and Putin's unilateral rejection of that reality.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

One of the things which needs a bit of unpacking is Michel's description of "the local pro-Russian governments" in Donetsk and Luhansk.

Being opposed to the Maidan revolution and not accepting the legitimacy of the government which replaced the puppet regime in Kyiv is one thing, but it's not the same thing as wanting the Russians to invade, occupy and annex your homeland.

Wanting to remain allied with Russia is not the same thing as wanting not to be Ukrainian and wanting to be part of Russia.

 

[Wildy]

We know that referendums took place in Crimea, and in the two people's republics, and that the local pro-Russian governments won these referendums (with big majorities).

We also know that those referendums were illegal. Crimea and the Donbass puppet states don't have the right to unilaterally decide to secede from Ukraine and join Russia. Ukraine has the right to allow such a referendum if they wanted to, but they haven't. Likewise the proposed referendums in occupied Kherson and Zaporizhzhia Oblasts also wouldn't be considered legitimate because again, Russia doesn't have the right to allow such territorial changes from Ukraine in that way.

Maybe they could have used those illegal referendums to try and negotiate something, but instead we've ended up in the situation we're in now.

 

[sackett]

Calm down, fellers. Michel is using Mau Mau logic: "If one dog has spots, then all dogs have spots."