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Cont: General UK politics [2]

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IMO the grammar school system worked for the majority those children lucky enough to pass the 11-plus exam. The trouble is that unless your parents could afford to pay for extra tutoring to get you through the exam or you went to a "good" primary school which helped you prepare to take the exam then your chances of passing were limited.

For sure some working class children slipped through the net, but generally grammar schools were a way for middle-class children to get a free education equivalent to one they could get at a minor public school.

Heaven help you if you were a "late bloomer".

I'd have likely passed the 11-plus, I was precocious and my parents were teachers, but I went to comprehensive school with a lot of kids who would have been consigned to the Secondary Modern and their academic education would have been at an end. A fair proportion went on to get good O and A levels and have a successful university career. These are the real beneficiaries from the comprehensive system - bright, hard-working kids from poor backgrounds.

Being dim and lazy, I can see how Liz Truss didn't thrive under such a system ;)

I think it is actually worse and can fail people who fail to get in, as you say, but it also can fail those who pass but had a good day on the test but then end up spending the next 5 years at the bottom of the class rather than towards the top of they had been in a purely comprehensive system. But of course the system in Kent, for example means that you have grammars and comprehensives with almost all the more able kids removed. So even ignoring the impact of coaching, I think it fails a group of more able kids in a way that the comprehensive system doesn't.


My kids went to the local comprehensive in Derbyshire, and it seemed to be pretty reasonable for gifted and talented kids, so probably no worse than a grammar system for the most able and better for everyone else.
 
Liz Truss claimed she grew up in a “red wall” seat. But Leeds NE was a Tory seat from 1955.
Sir Keith Joseph was the Secretary of State for Education in the Thatcher govt until 86 and he was the MP for Leeds North East that covers Roundhay.

Roundhay is a posh suburb
 
Don't forget the grammar school system is still alive and well in some places in England - I live in one of those areas and moving here was an eye-opener.

Nothing could be more true than your statement "...generally grammar schools were a way for middle-class children to get a free education equivalent to one they could get at a minor public school.....".

Parents who have resources screw with the system like anything and without any shame, from getting solicitors involved, to out and out lying, to 12 months of tutoring for little Jeanie that is only about passing the 11 plus. Oh of course it still means a bright kid from any background should be able to get in, if everything else was equal - but everything else isn't equal. I've known parents who dreaded the idea of their kid getting to a local grammar if they passed their 11 plus - because of the incidental costs involved. Uniforms tend to be more expensive; they tend to need more equipment and kit because they get a more varied curriculum, there are more and much more expensive school trips and so on. It all adds up.

Sadly, it's a corrupted system.

A colleague's middle child recently did the test. Don't know outcome yet, but there was pressure, as if they had failed, they would have had to go to the local state school, which has different holidays. Their eldest got into the grammer school, so would be a nightmare if they failed to get in.
 
For sure some working class children slipped through the net, but generally grammar schools were a way for middle-class children to get a free education equivalent to one they could get at a minor public school.

'Twasn't where I went to a state grammar school: the 2 grammars in my city were better than the local private schools, which were where bairns who didn't succeed in the selective process (it wasn't the streotypical 11+ exam, ut assessment of the last 2 years' work at primary school) but had wealthy parents went (I knew quite a few of those...) to avoid going to the local secondary moderns.

And one of those private schools produced Dominic Cummings, who comes from a family who have been diddling the local council out of money for years (see all the stories which re-surfaced when the Barnard Castle thing blew up and then when he fell out with BlowJob).

The aping of systems from public schools was definitely A Thing: ******* prefects? Who needs ******* prefects?
 
Meanwhile, as the various candidates for the Tory Party Clownshow are extolling the virtues of de-regulation and claiming they will find some more regulation to get rid of, let us remind ourselves why we need good and functioning regulation, especially in captive markets: https://www.theguardian.com/busines...gamble-ended-up-costing-bill-payers-700m-avro

Not to mention preoper enforcement of existing companies law and accounting rules...
 
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Liz Truss claimed she grew up in a “red wall” seat. But Leeds NE was a Tory seat from 1955.
Sir Keith Joseph was the Secretary of State for Education in the Thatcher govt until 86 and he was the MP for Leeds North East that covers Roundhay.

Roundhay is a posh suburb

True, but compared to her old Etonian chums, she was on the breadline. :rolleyes:
 
Johnson writes to liaison committee about 2018 meeting with ex-KGB agent Alexander Lebedev

“This was not a formal meeting, nor something that was pre-arranged.
As far as I am aware, no Government business was discussed”.

That means Government business was certainly discussed.
 
Johnson writes to liaison committee about 2018 meeting with ex-KGB agent Alexander Lebedev

“This was not a formal meeting, nor something that was pre-arranged.
As far as I am aware, no Government business was discussed”.

That means Government business was certainly discussed.

Or: BlowJob admits he doesn't know what he is talking about...
 
David Allen Green's analysis of BJ's letter concerning a meeting with ex-KGB Alexander Lebedev

https://davidallengreen.com/2022/07...is-johnsons-letter-about-the-lebedev-meeting/
In plain language: the Prime Minister did not subsequently notify officials of his meeting with Alexander Lebedev.

Note also the Prime Minister does not simply say “[N]o Government business was discussed”.

If the Prime Minister could have said just that, he would have done so – and put the matter beyond any doubt.

But he did not say that, and that is presumably because he cannot say that.

Worth reading in full.
 
David Allen Green's analysis of BJ's letter concerning a meeting with ex-KGB Alexander Lebedev

https://davidallengreen.com/2022/07...is-johnsons-letter-about-the-lebedev-meeting/




Worth reading in full.

Interestingly the "anti-government" BBC is choosing to lie about what Boris Johnson said.

Boris Johnson has said that no government business was discussed when he met Russian oligarch and ex-KGB agent Alexander Lebedev, without officials present, in 2018.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-...dfed6c1136d922db66f8cb&pinned_post_type=share

That's rubbish, he just said that he wasn't aware of any business being discussed but as he's unaware of raucous parties happing in his own flat - that means nothing whatsoever. :mad:
 
After both telling the country that they are going to be honest with the public because that's important for a PM, in response to the question "is Brexit the cause of the queues in Dover?" they both say no.
The truth is unpalatable.

I think this has been posted up thread somewhere - anyway, Truss is lying about her school.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...s-roundhay-school-foreign-secretary-education

You really shouldn’t take anything the mendacious, self serving Tory leadership say at face value.
That's your next PM you're talking about.....
 
Don't forget the grammar school system is still alive and well in some places in England - I live in one of those areas and moving here was an eye-opener.
I may be slightly biased, since I went to a grammar school, which is still going, my children each went to one (both of which are still going, in a different area from mine), and my sister's three boys all went to one (again, still going, in a third area), so it still seems the norm to me.
 
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Pity the page is protected
 
Liz Truss claimed she grew up in a “red wall” seat. But Leeds NE was a Tory seat from 1955.
Sir Keith Joseph was the Secretary of State for Education in the Thatcher govt until 86 and he was the MP for Leeds North East that covers Roundhay.

Roundhay is a posh suburb

Her primary school in Paisley was/is a mixed bag, taking kids from the poshest part of town, which was next to not just the most deprived part of town, but the most deprived part of Scotland, Ferguslie Park.
 
Don't forget the grammar school system is still alive and well in some places in England ....

And Northern Ireland. Relatives there were OK about it because the local comprehensive had a good reputation, but my nephews have all got into the Grammar, which is proving surprisingly expensive, between uniform and paying for trips, sports and all the books etc.
 
Don't forget the grammar school system is still alive and well in some places in England - I live in one of those areas and moving here was an eye-opener.

Nothing could be more true than your statement "...generally grammar schools were a way for middle-class children to get a free education equivalent to one they could get at a minor public school.....".

Parents who have resources screw with the system like anything and without any shame, from getting solicitors involved, to out and out lying, to 12 months of tutoring for little Jeanie that is only about passing the 11 plus. Oh of course it still means a bright kid from any background should be able to get in, if everything else was equal - but everything else isn't equal. I've known parents who dreaded the idea of their kid getting to a local grammar if they passed their 11 plus - because of the incidental costs involved. Uniforms tend to be more expensive; they tend to need more equipment and kit because they get a more varied curriculum, there are more and much more expensive school trips and so on. It all adds up.

Sadly, it's a corrupted system.

I wasn't actually advocating for the return of grammar schools. I was pointing out that as long as there is a level of elite education that people can buy into - and let's not kid ourselves, how many parents do you know who have a spare £40K per annum + expenses on top - then there will always be the problem of the UK being ruled by a bunch of out of touch toffs because they are the only people presumed acceptable for the role of PM.

I feel sure that Sunak sincerely believes he is there by merit and I have to say whilst you are in the system you cannot see the system. It is only now at a distance and having read the book The Class Ceiling - although ironically I studied Sociology as an optional subject for my degree and read it for leisure - that it smacked me like a brick that _DOH! of course I was carried along by privilege all the time, without even realising it. All those times I turned up at a job interview and given the job without even a question being asked, it just suddenly became clear. We each thinkw e are ordinary but then wait! So my mother newly separated was able to buy a four bed house in a leafy area thanks to a deposit from her parents and I happened to go to a reasonably prestigious school which was nearby. I had a proper employment pension plan before they became compulsory. I had training contracts enabling me to bunk off once a week to a top shiny business college (no distance learning needed, everything needed to pass professional exams laid on) and then, here's the rub, once having passed a ridiculous number of mindbending exams...you still need to find two suitably qualified people to endorse you for membership (mentorship, sponsorship). Reading this tome just suddenly made me realise oh my goodness, yes, everyone in my family is naturally bright and able to pass exams, but I was cruising along on privilege and never saw it before. The class system in the UK means you can't just 'work hard and make sacrifices', you have to send out the right social code signals in order to even get your foot in the door. There were many times I was broke, and like everybody had good times and bad times, but all along I had the safety net which those who do not have inherited wealth never do, and I never saw it.

The idea of merit is just an illusion. Here in Finland schools like Winchester and Eton are actually illegal. You cannot buy yourself into the establishment. When you look at the scandinavian, nordic and baltic nations and even New Zealand and they manage to recruit perfectly decent prime ministers who don't look anything like Billy Bunter or Lord Snooty. PM Sanna Marin grew up in a social housing apartment with a single parent who was in a same sex relationship. She was in her early thirties when she took on the role and wears trendy clothes.

I think Liz Truss gets it as she went to an ordinary comprehensive and her parents took her on protest marches. Her dad is a professor, sure, but the lecturers I know rarely earned more than about £45,000 (some years ago) which is hardly super wealth league. When she got to Oxford she will have had the culture shock of being one of the rare ordinary middle classes. However, whilst you are the class system you really don't see how you are privileged, so people think Truss is criticising the quality of teaching or the school buildings and are incredibly offended by the perceived insult. However, I don't think that was the point she was making.
 
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I may be slightly biased, since I went to a grammar school, which is still going, my children each went to one (both of which are still going, in a different area from mine), and my sister's three boys all went to one (again, still going, in a third area), so it still seems the norm to me.

As mentioned by Darat Grammar schools are flawed in that rich parents can use their money to get their kids into the grammar school and not the comp.

That said the other system is also flawed in that house prices round good schools often leads to a very similar result.
 
As mentioned by Darat Grammar schools are flawed in that rich parents can use their money to get their kids into the grammar school and not the comp.
I guess that's true, though wasn't a factor for anyone in my family.
That said the other system is also flawed in that house prices round good schools often leads to a very similar result.
We're selling my mum's house, and it's in the same borough as my sister's; the fact that it's in the catchment area for the local grammar school did seem to be a significant factor for some of the potential buyers.



In other news, the latest TV debate was halted due to a medical emergency (not one of the candidates).

ETA: Kate McCann, the presenter, apparently fainted.
 
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