Ed Christianity Foments Villainy

[stanfr]

And as much as I don't care for Christianity I don't see this. It does value credulity over good deeds which is offensive. Still, a Christian would say this is about mercy, grace and forgiveness. That it is never too late to turn over a new leaf. Its also important to know that we need to forgive others as well.

We all know we have made mistakes and hope to be forgiven. As a former Christian who always thought that much of the Bible is ridiculous and unbelievable, I appreciate some of the philosophy.

^^^ YES! amen! I always thought it was insane that i would have to bow before an imaginary sheepherder just to save my butt, but I also recognized that compassion, forgiveness, even turning the other cheek when appropriate, were good strategies for humanity. Christianity didn't invent those, but it did give them a stage. I remember as a kid learning about Jesus hanging out with 'sinners' while the rest of the crowd was ready to stone them, and I thought that was a cool thing. I still do

 

[Leumas]

And as much as I don't care for Christianity I don't see this. It does value credulity over good deeds which is offensive. Still, a Christian would say this is about mercy, grace and forgiveness. That it is never too late to turn over a new leaf. Its also important to know that we need to forgive others as well.

We all know we have made mistakes and hope to be forgiven. As a former Christian who always thought that much of the Bible is ridiculous and unbelievable, I appreciate some of the philosophy.

Let's take this step by step...

When you were a christian.... I know you have been a staunch atheist for a while and may have forgotten... put on your old Christianity Cap and let's see some things from your perspective back then under that hat....

1. Were you a works+faith christian or a just faith christian.... i.e. Catholic/Orthodox (etc.) ... or Protestant (Calvinist, Anglican Lutheran etc.)
2. Did you believe that if one did not believe in Jesus as the Zombified son of YHWH who died for one's sins ... then one is damned
3. And mentioning damnation... did you think that was hell or not
4. Did you believe that if one believes in Jesus and is baptized then one is saved as long as they repented of their sins no matter what they were

 

[stanfr]

Let's take this step by step...

When you were a christian.... I know you have been a staunch atheist for a while and may have forgotten... put on your old Christianity Cap and let's see some things from your perspective back then under that hat....

1. Were you a works+faith christian or a just faith christian.... i.e. Catholic/Orthodox (etc.) ... or Protestant (Calvinist, Anglican Lutheran etc.)
2. Did you believe that if one did not believe in Jesus as the Zombified son of YHWH who died for one's sins ... then one is damned
3. And mentioning damnation... did you think that was hell or not
4. Did you believe that if one believes in Jesus and is baptized then one is saved as long as they repented of their sins no matter what they were

I know this wasn't addressed to me, but since I am also a born-again atheist I'll answer:
1) I was raised Catholic (my father was protestant and while i will never know for sure I believe he was an atheist) I went to a rather 'liberal' church where women could get away with wearing sexy outfits. On the other hand, years later a couple of the priests were outted for molestation.
2) No, because I was taught (by Sunday school and others in that faith) that you did not go to hell for being a non Zombified son believer--you went to 'Limbo"--an eternal holding cell where you would await your eventual redemption. So it wasn't quite as scary as hell.
3) We didn't hear alot about 'hell' per se, although it was made clear that unrepentant sinners would roast in some form of eternal doom.
4) I was told that, and it was an enticing carrot but of course as an intelligent youngster I realized it was B.S.

 

[acbytesla]

Let's take this step by step...

When you were a christian.... I know you have been a staunch atheist for a while and may have forgotten... put on your old Christianity Cap and let's see some things from your perspective back then under that hat....

1. Were you a works+faith christian or a just faith christian.... i.e. Catholic/Orthodox (etc.) ... or Protestant (Calvinist, Anglican Lutheran etc.)
2. Did you believe that if one did not believe in Jesus as the Zombified son of YHWH who died for one's sins ... then one is damned
3. And mentioning damnation... did you think that was hell or not
4. Did you believe that if one believes in Jesus and is baptized then one is saved as long as they repented of their sins no matter what they were

Even when I was a Christian I didn't believe that anyone was damned. You're assuming I followed standard teaching. I cherry picked and interpreted verses to fit my idea of a God that was loving of us all.

 

[Leumas]

^^^ YES! amen! I always thought it was insane that i would have to bow before an imaginary sheepherder just to save my butt, but I also recognized that compassion, forgiveness, even turning the other cheek when appropriate, were good strategies for humanity. Christianity didn't invent those, but it did give them a stage. I remember as a kid learning about Jesus hanging out with 'sinners' while the rest of the crowd was ready to stone them, and I thought that was a cool thing. I still do

• Do you think it was cool when he humiliated a poor woman begging him to help her daughter and told her that her people and all gentiles are DOGS worthy only of crumbs from under their masters' feet?
  
• Did you think it was cool when he made a woman kiss his feet and rub her tears off of his feet with her hair?
  
• Did you think it was cool when he was performing magic tricks to bamboozle them??? And pretending that demon possession is real??? And pretending to raise a person from 4 days death??? And using spittle mixed with dirt to pretend to cure blindness?? And using magic incantations with spit rubbed in the ears and placed on the tongue to cure deafness and muteness?
  
• Did you think it was cool when he told them to castrate themselves for the sake of the kingdom of heaven?
  
• Did you think it was cool when he told them to leave the dead bodies of their kin and kith unburied and go follow his cult movement?
  
• Did you think it was cool he was telling these people not to save for the future and not to worry about working for a living?
  
• Was it cool when he told them it is better to chop off their hands and pluck out their eyes for ogling and then lusting and then using their hands???
  
• Was it cool to prevent divorce?
  
• Was it cool to command giving away one's wealth and then become a mendicant hobo?

 

[Leumas]

Even when I was a Christian I didn't believe that anyone was damned. You're assuming I followed standard teaching. I cherry picked and interpreted verses to fit my idea of a God that was loving of us all.

Ok... so you are not a good example...

Let's try a different way...

Can you think like a Colombian Trafficante or an Italian Mafioso??? Or a Mega Church Televangelist???

What do you think their answers to the same questions be???

Keep in mind they were brought up steeped in their version of christianity.

 

[Leumas]

I know this wasn't addressed to me, but since I am also a born-again atheist I'll answer:
1) I was raised Catholic (my father was protestant and while i will never know for sure I believe he was an atheist) I went to a rather 'liberal' church where women could get away with wearing sexy outfits. On the other hand, years later a couple of the priests were outted for molestation.
2) No, because I was taught (by Sunday school and others in that faith) that you did not go to hell for being a non Zombified son believer--you went to 'Limbo"--an eternal holding cell where you would await your eventual redemption. So it wasn't quite as scary as hell.
3) We didn't hear alot about 'hell' per se, although it was made clear that unrepentant sinners would roast in some form of eternal doom.
4) I was told that, and it was an enticing carrot but of course as an intelligent youngster I realized it was B.S.

Thanks for answering... and yes of course you can answer anything... it is also well appreciated....

Now for some new questions....

Can you think like a Colombian Trafficante or an Italian Mafioso??? Or a Mega Church Televangelist???

What do you think their answers to the same questions would be???

Keep in mind they were brought up steeped in their version of christianity.

 

[Leumas]

...
1) I was raised Catholic (my father was protestant and while i will never know for sure I believe he was an atheist) I went to a rather 'liberal' church where women could get away with wearing sexy outfits. On the other hand, years later a couple of the priests were outted for molestation.

Did these priests drop dead on the spot without a chance for repentance or redemption or even praying for their souls??

If not... did they go to confessional and confess their sins and repent???

Where do you think the Catholic church says they would be after their death???

 

[Leumas]

He was pretty obviously a cult figure and leader.
That's vile.

EXACTLY!!!

More like Joseph Smith or David Koresh or Jim Jones or Marshal Applewhite or L.R. Hubbard or even Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh.

 

[Myriad]

According to the Old Tall tales, that is exactly what it says should have been done to him... especially when you take things like what he said in Matthew 19:12 and compare it to Deuteronomy 23:1-2... or what he said in Matthew 8:22 and compare it to the 5th commandment (Exodus 20:12).

• Deuteronomy 13:1-5 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder come to pass... Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for YHWH your God proveth you, to know whether ye love YHWH your God with all your heart and with all your soul... keep his commandments... and that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death....

And did Jesus tell them to follow or worship other gods? (You know, like it says in the part of your quote that somehow accidentally got turned into ellipsis.) What verse was that in?

 

[Leumas]

Jesus saves, bro.

No he does not ... he himself said that he does not save and told his followers to not do so...

• Matthew 6:19-34 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal... Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?... Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?... Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

 

[acbytesla]

Ok... so you are not a good example...

Actually I think I'm a very good example. The average pastor preaches selected verses that focus on the traits of of Jesus that most of us find admirable. And the average person in the pews know but a little of what is in the Bible.

Let's try a different way...

Can you think like a Colombian Trafficante or an Italian Mafioso??? Or a Mega Church Televangelist???

What do you think their answers to the same questions be???

Keep in mind they were brought up steeped in their version of christianity.

There's a big difference between those people and the people on the street. If you actually read the Bible in its totality, the book is vile. But many passages are not.

 

[Leumas]

Actually I think I'm a very good example. The average pastor preaches selected verses that focus on the traits of of Jesus that most of us find admirable. And the average person in the pews know but a little of what is in the Bible.


There's a big difference between those people and the people on the street. If you actually read the Bible in its totality, the book is vile. But many passages are not.

You were not a good example of a person who believes that Jesus' own words are binding.

Nor a good example of a brigand or villain who WANTS Jesus' own words to be binding.

 

[Leumas]

And did Jesus tell them to follow or worship other gods? (You know, like it says in the part of your quote that somehow accidentally got turned into ellipsis.) What verse was that in?

Yes... himself... as the second god in the trinity of gods.

• John 1:1-14 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.... And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
• 1 John 5:7-8 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood, and these three agree in one.
• John 10:30 I and the Father are one.
• John 8:58-59 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Also see these verses ... did Jesus break all of those??

• Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of YHWH your God which I command you.
• Deuteronomy 4:40 Thou shalt keep therefore his statutes, and his commandments, which I command thee this day, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, and that thou mayest prolong thy days upon the earth, which YHWH thy God giveth thee, for ever.

 

[Leumas]

There's a big difference between those people and the people on the street. If you actually read the Bible in its totality, the book is vile. But many passages are not.

Yes there is ... did you read the OP???

What most people fail to understand is that Christianity is a WARRANT for villainy.

I will say that again Christianity RATIFIES evil. Any villain aspirant loves Christianity. That is why Constantine adopted it.
A person who TRULY and seriously believes in the TENETS of Christianity knows that Jesus loves villains ninety nine more times than he loves their victims.... yes... Jesus makes it very arrantly clear that he loves and cherishes villains who believe in him 99 times more than their victims and if any of the victims of the villains stopped believing in Jesus (or never did) then Jesus will TORTURE FOR ETERNITY those victims and will allow the villains to watch the torture and revel in it while Jesus is jubilating the villains and joyously welcoming them to his bosom in heaven.....

According to those parables a villain can have a life-long career in vitiating humanity and rapine and vile actions leaving countless victims in his wake agonizing and screeching with pain and steeped in misery without Jesus even lifting a finger to stop it. But when this villain decides to retire from his career of vitiating humanity, all he has to do is ask Jesus for forgiveness and be baptized, even in the last hour... and he will assuredly be welcomed into the bosom of Jesus with 99 times more joy than his victims who despite Jesus' abject failure to stop their agonies remained believers.....
So anyone who reads the New Tall tales with a discerning critical eye can see that as far as Jesus is concerned, a mass murderer will be more joyously welcomed into Jesus' bosom than 99 victims he extirpated and if any of those victims were non-believers in Jesus then they will be tormented for eternity while the villains who ravaged them watch their agony as entertainment while lying on Jesus' bosom in heaven.

Christianity is a religion TAILOR-MADE for villains and brigands and vile priests who ravage humanity.

 

[Leumas]

There's a big difference between those people and the people on the street. If you actually read the Bible in its totality, the book is vile. But many passages are not.

Defense Lawyer: Your honor... yes my client did many vile crimes including this one he is on trial for... but he also gave to charity and he even drove one of his victims to the hospital after he shot him and consequently he did not die but was only maimed for life.

 

[Leumas]

^^^ YES! amen! I always thought it was insane that i would have to bow before an imaginary sheepherder just to save my butt, ...

Who is this???

...but I also recognized that compassion, forgiveness, even turning the other cheek when appropriate, were good strategies for humanity...

Is that what Jesus said???

...but I also recognized that compassion, forgiveness, even turning the other cheek when appropriate, were good strategies for humanity...Christianity didn't invent those, but it did give them a stage....

And how was the Christian stage played out when they HAD POWER??

• Christian Atrocities
• Victims Of Christianity
• Christian Violence

Do you know these verses???

• Matthew 7:15-20 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

 

[xjx388]

I think someone’s been binging on Jack Chick tracts and mistaking them as representative of all Christianity. As if salvation is a matter of simply checking a box and saying “I accept Jesus Christ,” and BOOM, salvation!

A villain cannot simply repent at the last hour. For one thing, that repentance must be true, not facetious. In any case, God isn’t concerned with earthly definitions of “villainy,” he is only concerned with us putting him first. If we do that, villainy cannot thrive because good works follow directly from being saved.

As for mafiosos and other villains being villains while at the same time being Catholics or whatever, well that’s just down to simple hypocrisy. Humans are very good at justifying whatever they want to do with rationalization. They will pick and choose which passages from their scripture they follow and ignore the overall message of the Bible and most other holy scriptures: love. A saved person loves his fellow man and can’t help but do good.

Too bad there’s actually no such thing as God because the truth is, it’s all of humanity that is “evil.” We do harm every day because at our core, we are selfish and greedy. Wipe out all the religions and that will still be true; we don’t need a scripture to justify our evil.

 

[stanfr]

[*]Do you think it was cool when he humiliated a poor woman begging him to help her daughter and told her that her people and all gentiles are DOGS worthy only of crumbs from under their masters' feet?

I get you read this in a literal sense, much like fundamentalist read biblical texts in a literal way, when it suits their agenda. You and the fundamentalists are alike in that regard. The highlighted portions are you then reading your interpretation into the text. Do I think maybe it should have been made more clear that he was (allegedly) saying this as a metaphor? Perhaps, but I don't care. It may be a little odd to me, but in context with the whole passage, it does not imply what you have implied it to mean. Feel free to disagree, but no, i found it neither cool nor uncool, just 'whatever' and harmless in the greater context.

[*]Did you think it was cool when he made a woman kiss his feet and rub her tears off of his feet with her hair?

Seriously dude?? Can you quote the passage where he forcefully "made" her??
Would you have interpreted it differently if she had kissed him on the cheek? This really shows how far gone you are, Leumas.

[*]Did you think it was cool when he was performing magic tricks to bamboozle them??? And pretending that demon possession is real??? And pretending to raise a person from 4 days death??? And using spittle mixed with dirt to pretend to cure blindness?? And using magic incantations with spit rubbed in the ears and placed on the tongue to cure deafness and muteness?

In the context of the story, he wasn't pretending. Since I don't believe the story literally, I don't get offended by it, no more than I get offended by the Jedi using their powers to do cool or helpful things.

[*]Did you think it was cool when he told them to castrate themselves for the sake of kingdom of heaven?

If you can prove that it was physical castration, No. Good luck with that...

[*]Did you think it was cool when he told them to leave the dead bodies of their kin and kith unburied and go follow his cult movement?

see above

[*]Did you think it was cool he was telling these people not to save for the future and not to worry about working for a living?

In the context of the story, yeah. See above. If someone offered me a billion dollars, Id stop working. As it is, I work 6o hours a week and I don't have much time to respond to your ridiculous posts, but I'm putting in a final 2 pennies before I'm unfortunately forced by the need to pay my rent to bow out. Thanks!

[*]Was it cool when he told them it is better to chop off their hands and pluck out their eyes for ogling and then lusting and then using their hands???

If I thought it was literal, no--but it wasn't literal. You'd have to have a pretty low intelligence to think otherwise.

[*]Was it cool to prevent divorce?

Nope!

[*]Was it cool to command giving away one's wealth and then become a mendicant hobo?

Yes! If I were rich that is pretty much exactly what I would do. I would not consider myself a "mendicant hobo" (your words, not his) but yeah I think it was cool.

 

[acbytesla]

Yes there is ... did you read the OP???

Originally Posted by*Leumas*
A person*who TRULY and seriously believes*in the TENETS of Christianity.

There's a reason there is about 45,000 different Christian denominations. They view the tenets differently. I use to think the way I interpreted the Bible was bizarrely different than what I had been taught. Christianity is dramatically different then it was hundreds of years ago and that is very different than it was in the first few centuries.

Everyone picks and chooses. Everyone.