Cont: Trans women are not women (IX)

[mumblethrax]

We we have different definitions of harsh then. Depriving these swimmers of victory and denying them a place in a team (and if they make the Olympic team, even a livelihood) to make Thomas feel better is harsh in my view.

We probably do. It's not really worth quibbling about, since we both think they're being treated unjustly.

 

[theprestige]

I think it's unfair to expect them to compete against Thomas. I don't think they're being treated harshly. I don't think anybody is sending death threats to them.

I think the ones that have actually spoken up about it have received at least a few death threats.

 

[mumblethrax]

https://www.google.com/search?q="An...een+cancelled+or+have+received+death+threats"

I mean, I'm aware of why they're speaking out anonymously. But "I have to speak out anonymously or I might receive death threats" is still quite distinct from "I am receiving death threats."

 

[d4m10n]

I mean, I'm aware of why they're speaking out anonymously. But "I have to speak out anonymously or I might receive death threats" is still quite distinct from "I am receiving death threats."

It seems likely that whomever chooses to deanonymize is going to face the kill TERFs brigade.

 

[theprestige]

How do you expect to know that, other than to take her word for it? You don't have access to her medical history, and you shouldn't.

One thing we can do is look at the medical approach to gender self-ID generally. There are all kinds of medically-recognized conditions, for which the typically-prescribed treatments are well known and widely accepted by medical professionals. Transsexual competition in sports is not such a treatment, as far as I know.

Nor has the NCAA made diagnosis a prerequisite for transitioning to women's sports, as far as I know.

In any case, the idea that you, rather than she, should be caretaker of her well-being is incredibly paternalistic.

We take an interest in the well-being of others all the time, both as individuals and groups. OSHA exists. Seatbelt laws exist. More to the point, medical malpractice laws and medical ethics boards exist. I didn't figure you for a libertarian extremist.

The negative impact to actual women from trans-privileging policies has also been extensively addressed by others in this thread and elsewhere. I'm pretty sure you're the only one who thinks it's somehow wrong to be concerned about the well-being of women athletes and women in general.

Okay, maybe not the only one. There seems to be a lot of "women's well-being doesn't matter" going around on the trans-privileging side of the debate.

 

[mumblethrax]

One thing we can do is look at the medical approach to gender self-ID generally. There are all kinds of medically-recognized conditions, for which the typically-prescribed treatments are well known and widely accepted by medical professionals. Transsexual competition in sports is not such a treatment, as far as I know.

This is just silly. Nobody's arguing that it is.

Nor has the NCAA made diagnosis a prerequisite for transitioning to women's sports, as far as I know.

Which is precisely why we can't know for certain, and have to take her word for it.

We take an interest in the well-being of others all the time, both as individuals and groups. OSHA exists. Seatbelt laws exist. More to the point, medical malpractice laws and medical ethics boards exist. I didn't figure you for a libertarian extremist.

You'll notice that I said "caretaker of her well-being". As in, guardian. Obviously we all have an interest in her well-being, but she's the primary decision-maker.

The negative impact to actual women from trans-privileging policies has also been extensively addressed by others in this thread and elsewhere. I'm pretty sure you're the only one who thinks it's somehow wrong to be concerned about the well-being of women athletes and women in general.

Where on earth did you get the idea that I'm not concerned about it? I'm just saying we don't have to be cruel to her. Because we don't.

Okay, maybe not the only one. There seems to be a lot of "women's well-being doesn't matter" going around on the trans-privileging side of the debate.

The standard strawman that has made this thread so toxic.

 

[mumblethrax]

It seems likely that whomever chooses to deanonymize is going to face the kill TERFs brigade.

I'm aware of the existence of extremists on both the pro- and anti-trans side. I'm still unclear on why this has anything to do with the idea that we shouldn't be cruel to her.

 

[Ziggurat]

Major sporting organizations like the IOC & NCAA have access to the resources to hire sports scientists, endocrinologists, and others with the subject matter expertise to put together studies like this one. Individual athletes don't.

You don’t need a scientific study to recognize Lia has an unfair advantage. And Lia would have to be dumber than rocks to not recognize that advantage. I don’t think Lia is dumber than rocks.

 

[Ziggurat]

One of the definitions of "punish" is to treat someone in an unfairly harsh way, and this is the sense I meant.

She's getting death threats (of course), and theprestige thinks she's a scumbag, not because he thinks she's cheating, but because she degraded her performance (?).

Lia is a scumbag. She’s ruining the college athletic experience for a whole lot of women, out of selfishness. That doesn’t justify death threats, I am opposed to that and I don’t think anyone else in this thread thinks that’s ok either, but it absolutely justifies strong criticism.

 

[mumblethrax]

Lia is a scumbag. She’s ruining the college athletic experience for a whole lot of women, out of selfishness. That doesn’t justify death threats, I am opposed to that and I don’t think anyone else in this thread thinks that’s ok either, but it absolutely justifies strong criticism.

What does this have to do with calling her a scumbag for degrading her performance?

Criticize her all you want, just try to be vaguely coherent about it.

 

[lionking]

What does this have to do with calling her a scumbag for degrading her performance?

Criticize her all you want, just try to be vaguely coherent about it.

Because Thomas is gaming the system by swimming more slowly then they can and still winning. Thomas knows that winning by more than a lap will bring attention attention to the undoubted advantage they have and put more attention to the unfairness of the situation.

Thomas is aiming for the next Olympics and it doesn't matter who else misses out. Getting there and winning a gold medal will lead to fortune. There are a couple of problems here though. I think FINA and the IOC will gain control of their senses and not allow someone who has gone through puberty as a male to compete. Secondly, I don't think Thomas will beat the (real) women from Australia.

 

[mumblethrax]

Because Thomas is gaming the system by swimming more slowly then they can and still winning. Thomas knows that winning by more than a lap will bring attention attention to the undoubted advantage they have and put more attention to the unfairness of the situation.

Haven't heard this claim before. What's the evidence for it?

Anyway, theprestige was specifically talking about downgrading her body. By taking testosterone suppressors.

 

[lionking]

Haven't heard this claim before. What's the evidence for it?

Anyway, theprestige was specifically talking about downgrading her body. By taking testosterone suppressors.

Well not conclusive but credible. Thomas swam much slower than their best to allow a transman to win.

https://nypost.com/2022/01/21/penn-swimmer-alleges-lia-thomas-colluded-with-trans-athlete-to-lose/

A biological female member of the University of Pennsylvania women’s swimming team said she believes her transgender teammate Lia Thomas colluded with a Yale transgender athlete so she could lose to prove a point, according to a report.

Yalie Iszac Henig, who is transitioning from female to male, beat Thomas in both the women’s 100- and 400-yard freestyle races during an Ivy League swim meet on Jan. 8.

ETA, losing, but still swimming slower. Sorry for my mis-recollection.

 

[Aber]

I don't think males should be competing against females without first assessing their performance as individuals and ensuring it's within the range of female performance.

So it's OK for males to compete as long as they come second?

I think you need a better policy than that.

 

[Aber]

Haven't heard this claim before. What's the evidence for it?

Analysis of her split times

With Thomas producing splits of 52.14 and 50.98, it is clear that the Penn swimmer held back during the front half of the race and only shifted into a higher gear down the stretch. Thomas’ best for the season is her 1:41.93 outing from early December and it is highly likely that Thomas is sandbagging her races in order to avoid the additional attention she would garner with faster times.

https://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/news/lia-thomas-blasts-huge-closing-split-to-win-200-freestyle-at-ivy-league-champs-negative-split-suggests-holding-back/

 

[lionking]

Analysis of her split times



https://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/news/lia-thomas-blasts-huge-closing-split-to-win-200-freestyle-at-ivy-league-champs-negative-split-suggests-holding-back/

Thank you. A more detailed link than mine.

 

[mumblethrax]

So it's OK for males to compete as long as they come second?

I think you need a better policy than that.

I'm not saying "in any given race." I'm imagining there's some way to measure performance more generally. In Thomas' case, looking at his record in the men's division would be informative.

But of course you're probably not on the men's team at all if you can't beat the performance of women in most sports, and that's not an option where someone has no record in the men's division.

Glad this isn't my job.

 

[Aber]

I'm not saying "in any given race." I'm imagining there's some way to measure performance more generally. In Thomas' case, looking at his record in the men's division would be informative.

Strangely enough the top ranked article when I searched says:

During the last season Thomas competed as a member of the Penn men’s team, which was 2018-19, she ranked 554th in the 200 freestyle, 65th in the 500 freestyle and 32nd in the 1650 freestyle. As her career at Penn wrapped, she moved to fifth, first and eighth in those respective events on the women’s deck.

https://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/news/a-look-at-the-numbers-and-times-no-denying-the-advantages-of-lia-thomas/

Glad this isn't my job.

Women's sports is NOT a grey area where there are difficult decisions; male advantage is just too big.

The only reason Lia Thomas is competing is because of a decision to prioritise Inclusion over Fairness - see the discussions in the Sports Councils reports I linked to earlier.

 

[d4m10n]

I'm aware of the existence of extremists on both the pro- and anti-trans side. I'm still unclear on why this has anything to do with the idea that we shouldn't be cruel to her.

The whole situation is inherently cruel to her.

The upstanding people of the NCAA and Ivy League told her that she'd be accepted as a woman in every way, many of them reciting the mantra which has gained such currency in progressive spaces.

Now it turns out that many of her competitors and even some her teammates have misgivings about whether it's fair to put Lia in the pool with athletes who've never had their bodies altered by testosterone.

 

[mumblethrax]

Strangely enough the top ranked article when I searched says:

Her placement as a man doesn't really tell us much without comparing her times to those of women. Karsten Braasch, ranked 203rd in the world, handily beat both Williams sisters, and claims to have been playing like a top 600 player to keep it fun.

Women's sports is NOT a grey area where there are difficult decisions; male advantage is just too big.

As all of those advantages stem from having gone through male puberty, and at least some transwomen haven't, I think it's still something of a gray area. Even if they completely banned transwomen from the women's division, there's still the very similar issue of women with DSDs. "If you've gone through male puberty, no dice" is probably the best policy, but it raises the issue of how to tell if someone has gone through male puberty without bringing back unpopular and invasive inspections. One possibility might be to train a classifier to distinguish "male" and "female" faces/bodies, but that's not entirely accurate, particularly for non-white faces, and feminizing facial surgery is a thing.

And the problem gets worse in high school athletics, which in many ways I think of as being more important, because there are fewer resources.

I dunno, seems like a genuine difficulty to me no matter how you prioritize fairness and inclusivity.

Still glad it's not my job.