Cont: Trans women are not women (IX)

[mumblethrax]

Why one year instead of one day? They didn't have any evidence of how long it takes for hormone replacement to even the proverbial playing field, assuming it actually does at some point.

They do. The one year recommendation came from the IAAF/WorldAthletics and the IOC and was evidence-based.

But this study suggests the one year period it too short:

https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/11/577.full?ijkey=yjlCzZVZFRDZzHz&keytype=ref

Looks like the IOC just scrapped their policy, possibly in response to this research.

Well I've written before about my total lack of respect for "athletes" who intentionally downgrade their bodies to compete at a level below their true physical ability. As far as I'm concerned, Thomas and her ilk are scumbags for doing it, and the NCAA is scumbags for allowing it instead of repudiating it.

That's an odd stance. Would you think a female athlete with PCOS who sought treatment that lowered her androgen levels (and subsequently her performance) was a scumbag?

 

[Aber]

They do. The one year recommendation came from the IAAF/WorldAthletics and the IOC and was evidence-based.

Up to a point...

In 2003, the published information available to the IOC was somewhat sparse. It consisted of just five studies on bone density covering around 120 transwomen up to 3 and a half years after gonadectomy. None detected any significant or enduring difference in bone density compared with reference males.

Further research shows

Most detailed assessment on transgender inclusion in sport is from UK Sports Councils

https://equalityinsport.org/docs/300921/Guidance%20for%20Transgender%20Inclusion%20in%20Domestic%20Sport%202021.pdf

Supporting evidence is here

https://equalityinsport.org/docs/300921/Transgender%20International%20Research%20Literature%20Review%202021.pdf

Conclusions

Testosterone suppression has differing effects for different body systems, and this can be correlated with the factors of ‘gender-affected sport’; Strength, Stamina and Physique;
• Strength; Modest change within 12 months: Muscle mass (and perhaps cardiac size) and hence strength - appears retained at significantly higher levels than females.
• Stamina; Restoration of haemoglobin levels to female typical levels within 12 months: with relevant effect on oxygen carrying capacity as yet undefined.
• Physique; Minimal change: Structural features including the skeleton, bone density, height, lung and airway size, and tendon/ligament strength will remain, with modest loss of muscle mass.

This evidence suggests that parity in physical performance in relation to gender-affected sport cannot be achieved for transgender people in female sport through testosterone suppression.

Theoretical estimation in contact and collision sport indicate injury risk is likely to be increased for female competitors.

 

[llwyd]

Well I've written before about my total lack of respect for "athletes" who intentionally downgrade their bodies to compete at a level below their true physical ability. As far as I'm concerned, Thomas and her ilk are scumbags for doing it, and the NCAA is scumbags for allowing it instead of repudiating it.

I wonder if that is a fair characterization at all. And as a blanket statement describing all the transitioned people who engage in competitions it certainly must be incorrect and unfair. Of course, it might be that you really just meant only those nefarious people who "intentionally downgrade their bodies" just in order to compete in female sports - but how many there really can be? Seems rather weird that one would undergo such a change in order to do sports in female categories.

And this comment by someone who really sees sports as a genuinely problematic area and where many trans activists actuallly are clearly in the wrong. I don't much like the general (under)tone on these threads about trans people. At times language is really rather aggressive and hostile here.

 

[d4m10n]

The one year recommendation came from the IAAF/WorldAthletics and the IOC and was evidence-based.

I will accept this claim if you can show me that the IAAF or IOC referenced a study which used any reasonably methodology to come to the conclusion that one year was sufficient to bring about parity, on average, for any well-known predictor of athletic performance.

 

[Olmstead]

I wonder if that is a fair characterization at all. And as a blanket statement describing all the transitioned people who engage in competitions it certainly must be incorrect and unfair. Of course, it might be that you really just meant only those nefarious people who "intentionally downgrade their bodies" just in order to compete in female sports - but how many there really can be? Seems rather weird that one would undergo such a change in order to do sports in female categories.

And this comment by someone who really sees sports as a genuinely problematic area and where many trans activists actuallly are clearly in the wrong. I don't much like the general (under)tone on these threads about trans people. At times language is really rather aggressive and hostile here.

It goes against the spirit of professional sport. Female athletes are trying to reach their limits, while transwomen athletes are trying to limit themselves until they are somewhere in the ballpark of "fair".

 

[theprestige]

Even golfers don't literally handicap themselves. They play to the very utmost of their ability, and use a heuristic to adjust their scores. And of course at the highest levels of the sport, there's no handicap at all. Just men's and women's divisions, and everybody going all-out to see who is the best of the best on that day. Meanwhile Lia Thomas is over here saying, I could swim way faster than this if I wanted, but I'd rather swim as a woman*.

---
*For some weird-ass, semantically obfuscatory, biologically counterfactual, psychologically absurd definition of "woman".

 

[shuttlt]

It goes against the spirit of professional sport. Female athletes are trying to reach their limits, while transwomen athletes are trying to limit themselves until they are somewhere in the ballpark of "fair".

Has there ever been an athlete who has transitioned from men's to women's sports and ranked lower as a woman than they did as a man? Maybe it happens every day, and we don't hear about it?

 

[llwyd]

It goes against the spirit of professional sport. Female athletes are trying to reach their limits, while transwomen athletes are trying to limit themselves until they are somewhere in the ballpark of "fair".

Yes, but in this question it is absolutely a very marginal matter and to use it to enable outright hostility against the whole of the trans community (as the American conservatives are systematically and knowingly doing) is simply not acceptable. It won't wash.

 

[theprestige]

Yes, but in this question it is absolutely a very marginal matter and to use it to enable outright hostility against the whole of the trans community (as the American conservatives are systematically and knowingly doing) is simply not acceptable. It won't wash.

I'm not sure how one gets from singling out very a very marginal scenario featuring a small number of edge-case scumbags to "enable outright hostility" against a much larger community, but go off I guess.

Actually I'm quite sure about how one gets there: Projection.

There is a bit of irony here, since aside from the very small but slowly growing number of edge-case scumbags, the general view of the trans community - or at least the trans-activists in the community - is that sports (like women) don't really matter and won't be missed once they've been plowed under by trans-inclusionism.

 

[shuttlt]

I'm not sure how one gets from singling out very a very marginal scenario featuring a small number of edge-case scumbags to "enable outright hostility" against a much larger community, but go off I guess.

Actually I'm quite sure about how one gets there: Projection.

There is a bit of irony here, since aside from the very small but slowly growing number of edge-case scumbags, the general view of the trans community - or at least the trans-activists in the community - is that sports (like women) don't really matter and won't be missed once they've been plowed under by trans-inclusionism.

This is one of the reasons why compromise and understanding isn't possible. Motivations are read between the lines and then used to dismiss objections without having to address them. Everybody who disagrees is just suffering from sluggish schizophrenia.

 

[mumblethrax]

Up to a point...

Yes. And I hope I've made it clear that I don't think males should be competing against females without first assessing their performance as individuals and ensuring it's within the range of female performance. Looking at Lia Thomas' physique, I find it fairly implausible that she will ever not have an unfair advantage.

 

[Ziggurat]

No, not sophistry. In general, it's a bad idea to punish people for following the established rules. It's not material that she had a choice.

Who said anything about punishing Lia? We don’t have to punish Lia to assign some blame.

 

[mumblethrax]

Who said anything about punishing Lia? We don’t have to punish Lia to assign some blame.

One of the definitions of "punish" is to treat someone in an unfairly harsh way, and this is the sense I meant.

She's getting death threats (of course), and theprestige thinks she's a scumbag, not because he thinks she's cheating, but because she degraded her performance (?).

I'm comfortable with calling that unfairly harsh. I also just find it weird. And theprestige hasn't answered my hypothetical above, suggesting he can't answer it in a way that doesn't sound insane.

 

[d4m10n]

Who said anything about punishing Lia? We don’t have to punish Lia to assign some blame.

Major sporting organizations like the IOC & NCAA have access to the resources to hire sports scientists, endocrinologists, and others with the subject matter expertise to put together studies like this one. Individual athletes don't.

 

[theprestige]

One of the definitions of "punish" is to treat someone in an unfairly harsh way, and this is the sense I meant.

She's getting death threats (of course), and theprestige thinks she's a scumbag, not because he thinks she's cheating, but because she degraded her performance (?).

I'm comfortable with calling that unfairly harsh. I also just find it weird. And theprestige hasn't answered my hypothetical above, suggesting he can't answer it in a way that doesn't sound insane.

The two are not analogous. Not unless Thomas has been diagnosed with a medical condition and competing in sports as a woman is widely recognized by the medical community as the best course of treatment.

 

[lionking]

One of the definitions of "punish" is to treat someone in an unfairly harsh way, and this is the sense I meant.

She's getting death threats (of course), and theprestige thinks she's a scumbag, not because he thinks she's cheating, but because she degraded her performance (?).

I'm comfortable with calling that unfairly harsh. I also just find it weird. And theprestige hasn't answered my hypothetical above, suggesting he can't answer it in a way that doesn't sound insane.

Do you think the top NCAA ciswomen swimmers who are now literally in the wake of Thomas are being punished? That those who have devoted a good proportion of their lives to training and who dreamt of victory are being treated unfairly? I certainly do, and that trumps Thomas’ feelings (even if genuinely held, which is far from certain).

 

[mumblethrax]

The two are not analogous. Not unless Thomas has been diagnosed with a medical condition and competing in sports as a woman is widely recognized by the medical community as the best course of treatment.

How do you expect to know that, other than to take her word for it? You don't have access to her medical history, and you shouldn't.

In any case, the idea that you, rather than she, should be caretaker of her well-being is incredibly paternalistic.

 

[mumblethrax]

Do you think the top NCAA ciswomen swimmers who are now literally in the wake of Thomas are being punished? That those who have devoted a good proportion of their lives to training and who dreamt of victory are being treated unfairly? I certainly do, and that trumps Thomas’ feelings (even if genuinely held, which is far from certain).

I think it's unfair to expect them to compete against Thomas. I don't think they're being treated harshly. I don't think anybody is sending death threats to them.

 

[lionking]

I think it's unfair to expect them to compete against Thomas. I don't think they're being treated harshly.

We we have different definitions of harsh then. Depriving these swimmers of victory and denying them a place in a team (and if they make the Olympic team, even a livelihood) to make Thomas feel better is harsh in my view.

 

[d4m10n]

I don't think anybody is sending death threats to them.

Have you looked into this?