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Cont: Today's Mass Shooting (2)

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plague311 said:
I don't care, and I can't imagine why anyone else would. I don't see many people, after these events, asking about the ins and outs of getting a gun that wasn't used. Like I said, it's off topic.
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I was making the point that mass shooters generally aren't willing to through a rigorous and tedious process to get ahold of weapons. They get what's easy for them to acquire. If the shooter had been required to go through an FFL, purchase a stamp, wait a few weeks for government bureaucracy to get a weapon then theres a really good chance this never happens.
 
arayder said:
That being so it makes me wonder how many shotguns, automatic rifles and pistols were sitting in gun safes in the blocks around Robb Elementary.

Just a thought.
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lobosrul5 said:
Many I'm sure. And if one of the parents had grabbed one and ran to the school what would've been the response by police at the scene? Probably a hail of bullets the second they saw a weapon in someones hand.
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The two bad-guy-gets-shot-by-an-armed-citizen cases I am recalling were pretty straight forward. One bad guy came into to church shot a couple of parishioners and then got shoot dead by a well trained, experienced, former cop acting as a volunteer armed guard who drilled him right in the head from about 60 feet. One shot, one ranger.

The other one was another church shooting (in Texas, I believe) in which a regular Joe passerby chased the bad guy after he had shot up the church and killed several people. It was never clear to me whether the armed citizen's shots got the bad guy or whether the bad guy killed himself knowing he about to receive the wrath of a good guy with a gun.

Bob001 said:
And cars. Probably some in cars. But I dunno if you want a bunch of angry, scared, untrained civilians opening fire all over a school. A lot of them would wind up shooting each other, and the kids around them.
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I'd think that a good guy running into a school to get a bad guy would have to be careful he didn't get himself shot by a cop who might mistake him for the perp.

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Dope Clock II: It's been 346 days since Bobby Menard announced plans to create "Artists Valley". So far all he has done is lie through his teeth.
 
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Captain_Swoop said:
Every one of them did nothing.

They outnumbered him and they have training.

Why does it have to be something you encounter daily for you to do the right thing, the thing you are employed to do and are and trained for?
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And the people defending them are, for the most part, the same people who think armed teachers are the answer so presumably they would do a better job. The mental gymnastics are just bizarre.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
But the point is to loudly announce /project the forthcoming entry. It will distract the murderer away from the kids.
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Sorry if I am not convinced of your tactical expertise. Sounds like your version just leads to dead/wounded cops in addition to the children.
 
arayder said:
The two bad-guy-gets-shot-by-an-armed-citizen cases I am recalling were pretty straight forward. One bad guy came into to church shot a couple of parishioners and then got shoot dead by a well trained, experienced, former cop acting as a volunteer armed guard who drilled him right in the head from about 60 feet. One shot, one ranger.

The other one was another church shooting (in Texas, I believe) in which a passerby chased the bad guy after he had shot up the church and killed several people. It was never clear to me whether the armed citizen's shots got the bad guy or whether the bad guy killed himself knowing he about to receive the wrath of a good guy with a gun.

I'd think that a good guy running into a school to get a bad guy would have to be careful he didn't get himself shot by a cop who might mistake him for the perp.

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Dope Clock II: It's been 346 days since Bobby Menard announced plans to create "Artists Valley". So far all he has done is lie through his teeth.
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You are leaving out the ones where the cops then kill the good guy with a gun. Like the guy who stopped the shooter after he killed two cops then of course cops thanked him for it by killing him.
 
Warp12 said:
Sorry if I am not convinced of your tactical expertise. Sounds like your version just leads to dead/wounded cops in addition to the children.
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If a cop get shot while distracting the shooter and saves the lives of the children he would otherwise be shooting then that's just how it goes. It's a risk of the job.
Sometimes you have to be selfless.

Protect and Serve.

Also, while not exactly the same

HMS Rawalpindi "We’ll fight them both, they’ll sink us, and that will be that. Good-bye".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Rawalpindi
 
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Captain_Swoop said:
If a cop get shot while distracting the shooter and saves the lives of the children he would otherwise be shooting then that's just how it goes. It's a risk of the job.

Protect and Serve.
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The cops are also going to have body armor, ballistic shields and some practice in taking cover.
 
Beelzebuddy said:
But "defund the police" just doesn't inspire me.
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Inspires the hell out of me more and more with every news story.

The one goddamn thing we want them for. We don't want them for traffic citations. We don't need armed ones to make incident reports. We don't need them to show up after the dust has settled to put up caution tape and count casings, or maybe shoot some guy with a cel phone. We need them, and heavily arm and train them, for things like this.

Hey Mr Policeman? You don't get to call yourself a hero when you hang out in the parking lot till the shooter has killed all he can and is out of ammo.
 
Finster said:
And the people defending them are, for the most part, the same people who think armed teachers are the answer so presumably they would do a better job. The mental gymnastics are just bizarre.
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Yes, but see the teachers will be in their classroom hunkered down with nowhere to run. So in the interest of self preservation they would shoot the active shooter, in theory anyways. While the cops, waiting around outside, have no self preservation interest in running in. Its just what they've been trained to do, and its their job, but no actual legal duty to intervene (at least not a duty that carries any sort of punishment for failure to carry out). That's where we are in this country at the moment. Its insanity.
 
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Thermal said:
Inspires the hell out of me more and more with every news story.

The one goddamn thing we want them for. We don't want them for traffic citations. We don't need armed ones to make incident reports. We don't need them to show up after the dust has settled to put up caution tape and count casings, or maybe shoot some guy with a cel phone. We need them, and heavily arm and train them, for things like this.

Hey Mr Policeman? You don't get to call yourself a hero when you hang out in the parking lot till the shooter has killed all he can and is out of ammo.
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We need cameras to send out traffic citations. We need some CSI guys to investigate crime. And we still need a few armed police to respond to active situations and serve warrants on felons. We need the secret service and the Federal Marshals to be armed. Border patrol, OK yeah they're going to encounter cartel guys on occasion. Other than that I'm with you, police by and large shouldn't be armed with lethal weapons.
 
Warp12 said:
Sorry if I am not convinced of your tactical expertise. Sounds like your version just leads to dead/wounded cops in addition to the children.
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I'll take a possible wounded cop (heavily armed and armored) or two over a pile of defenseless dead children any day.

A little bit of action when Ramos was entering and exchanging gunfire might have ended up with Ramos never reaching those kids.
 
ponderingturtle said:
You are leaving out the ones where the cops then kill the good guy with a gun. Like the guy who stopped the shooter after he killed two cops then of course cops thanked him for it by killing him.
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Yeah, ya' have to be careful. There's a whole thing in the carry and conceal community about being the first to call 911 (and knowing how to act when the cops show up) after you pull your piece on somebody.

(off topic I know)

There are stories of mugger/bad guys calling 911 after they get thwarted in an attempted mugging or assault. The idea is that they call 911 first, act innocent and try to get the any blame passed off on the armed Joe.

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Dope Clock II: It's been 346 days since Bobby Menard announced plans to create "Artists Valley". So far all he has done is lie through his teeth.
 
Press conference underway now. Official in cowboy hat says that after the initial encounter it took time to call in backup, SWAT, hostage negotiators and others.
 
Warp12 said:
Sorry if I am not convinced of your tactical expertise. Sounds like your version just leads to dead/wounded cops in addition to the children.
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We go into the weeds yet again.

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Dope Clock II: It's been 346 days since Bobby Menard announced plans to create "Artists Valley". So far all he has done is lie through his teeth.
 
I get the anger. First it started with anger at the GOP, and now the cops. Meanwhile, there was a psycho who set out to kill these kids, you know. But it is hard to feel satisfaction ranting at dead people.

People get angry because they feel very impotent being a bystander to this sort of thing. So of course you have to understand their rage, whether properly focused or not.
 
Warp12 said:
Sorry if I am not convinced of your tactical expertise. Sounds like your version just leads to dead/wounded cops in addition to the children.
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There was some shooting, then a lull.

During that lull, children were bleeding. To death.

Then more gunfire, more kids shot.


Moving in during that lull might have gotten cops wounded or killed. But it would have also allowed medical aid to get to the children wounded in the first round of shooting. Some of them would have survived because of that. The children shot in the second round of shooting might not have been shot at all.

So it reads more like this:
... Sounds like your version just leads to dead/wounded cops in instead of more dead children.
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Warp12 said:
I get the anger. First it started with anger at the GOP, and now the cops. Meanwhile, there was a psycho who set out to kill these kids, you know. But it is hard to feel satisfaction ranting at dead people.

People get angry because they feel very impotent being a bystander to this sort of thing. So of course you have to understand their rage, whether properly focused or not.
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I bet those cops felt impotent at being just bystanders. I wonder how much rage they feel
 
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