Trans women are not women (Part 8)

[TurkeysGhost]

https://www.plannedparenthood.org/p...nts/health-care-services/transgender-services

"Gender Affirming Hormone Care
We offer gender affirming hormone care for patients 18 years and older at all of our health centers. You don’t need to participate in therapy or provide information from a mental health provider to receive hormone therapy."

Any questions?

If hormone therapy is a good fit for you, you'll receive a prescription that you can take to a pharmacy. In addition to gender affirming hormone therapy, Planned Parenthood welcomes patients of all genders and identities to access our wide range of health care services.

Kinda seems like you have to talk to the doc a bit before you get that sweet sweet hormone bottle.

But yes, this is much more useful than a personal anecdote. See, it's not hard.

 

[Manger Douse]

Probably depends on which restroom you're in

Male then.

Relately, why do you think transwomen are so massively overrepresented when it comes to committing sexual assault?

 

[Ziggurat]

Kinda seems like you have to talk to the doc a bit before you get that sweet sweet hormone bottle.

Really?

How much? What are the evaluation criteria? Who actually gets rejected, and why?

As far as I can tell, all that really happens is they ask you if that's what you really, really want. And if you really, really want it, then it's "a good fit for you".

 

[Meadmaker]

But yes, this is much more useful than a personal anecdote. See, it's not hard.

But, here's the thing.


You know that it's very easy for an adult to get whatever they want. You know that in some jurisdictions, it's fairly easy for a child to get what they want. You know that, to the extent that there are obstacles placed in the way of minors, you consider those to be bigoted transphobic things put in place by evil right wingers....blah, blah, blah.

You know all this, and yet you go through this pretense of questioning whether these are just anecdotes.

It's kind of silly, and kind of annoying.


Why not just admit what you really want? Why not just be honest about your position? Or....maybe I've misjudged. Here is what I think your position is. Let me know if I'm wrong.

When an adult seeks gender affirming care, whether hormones or surgery, that person should receive it. Perhaps there is consultation with a doctor, but actually requiring a mental health examination or diagnosis would be an unreasonable burden on someone seeking medical care.

As for children, I'm not sure of your exact position. I'm fairly certain, I hope, that you don't think an eleven year old should be able to walk into a doctor's office and ask for, and receive, gender affirming treatments such as hormones, puberty blockers, or surgery. But a 16 year old? I'm not sure what you think.

I'm fairly certain that you do not think that a parent should have absolute control that would prevent their child from seeking, and receiving, gender affriming care, but I don't know exactly what other procedures, in the absence of parental permission, you think ought to be required.

If there is parental permission, I think your position would be that a minor could seek, and receive, any gender affirming care that a doctor advises. There shouldn't be any other "gatekeeper". Or....is that not correct?

And as far as "social transition", i.e. school activity and how the child is referred to and treated at school, you don't think parents should have any influence at all on this. Am I right?

In general, you want to make it easy to receive gender affirming care, and you want treatment as the preferred gender to simply be automatic on request. Am I right?

I'm just asking for honesty. These aren't trick questions.

 

[theprestige]

Kinda seems like you have to talk to the doc a bit before you get that sweet sweet hormone bottle.

Huh. Kinda seems to me that they literally say you don't have to talk to a doc for a bit first.

But yes, this is much more useful than a personal anecdote. See, it's not hard.

It's definitely useful for supporting the thesis that trans-activism doesn't actually want people to seek medical opinions (or alternate diagnoses) prior to seeking trans-affirming care.

 

[theprestige]

These aren't trick questions.

Bet they get trick answers, though.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Kinda seems like you have to talk to the doc a bit before you get that sweet sweet hormone bottle.

Technically, I suppose. But then, in order to get a prescription of any sort, a person must technically talk to a doctor first.

This is some pretty blatant mischaracterization. PP is quite clear that there is no diagnosis of dysphoria required, nor any sort of mental health discussion at all. The "talk to the doctor" part is entirely based on making sure the hormones don't cause an immediate risk to the patient. That's all.

So yeah. They don't actually have to "talk to the doc a bit" in the sense that you imply in order to get that sweet sweet hormone bottle.

 

[Rolfe]

https://www.latimes.com/world-natio...ow-to-support-a-new-generation-of-trans-teens

 

[Meadmaker]

But, here's the thing.

<see previous post>

Just to follow up a bit, I'm not asking for a detailed treatise that could become legislation, just a basic statement. Like, for me, it would be

Gender affirming treatment for minors: Banned or extremely rare. I like the government of Sweden's latest policy.

Gender affirming treatment for adults: Requires psychological evaluation.

"Social transition" in schools: This one is actually the hardest one for me to decide what's right. Since I wouldn't let them use the locker room of their choice anyway, I'm not sure it matters. I'm inclined to say it's ok, with or without parental notification. I'm open to arguments.

Parental control over gender affirming care: N/A. It would only be allowed for minors in extreme cases, and the parents aren't the right people to make the decision. Of course, for adults, completely irrelevant.



So, that's it? And....why do I ask in the first place? Because you (SuburbanTurkey) made a big deal about the story of a minor receiving gender affirming hormones without parental consent or significant psychological evaluation. You acted as if there was some doubt about it, and dismissed the story. I think you knew it was accurate, or at the very least, you wished it were accurate.

 

[theprestige]

It's less confusing if you subscribe to the hypothesis that most of what we're calling "transgender" is actually transsexual.

For example:

https://www.plannedparenthood.org/p...nts/health-care-services/transgender-services

"Gender Affirming Hormone Care
We offer gender affirming hormone care for patients 18 years and older at all of our health centers. You don’t need to participate in therapy or provide information from a mental health provider to receive hormone therapy."

Any questions?

I have a question. If gender is a social construct and totally hackable and queerable, why are hormones needed to affirm it?

Don't worry, it's a rhetorical question. The answer, of course, is that it's really sex-affirming hormone care.

 

[Rolfe]

It's very simple. If you're an adult man, especially if you're middle-aged or older, you do you. Hormones, no hormones, slutty dresses or frumpy skirts or business suits, none of these affect your absolute right to be affirmed as a woman and make a damn nuisance of yourself in women's single-sex spaces.

Conversely, if you're a child or an adolescent, puberty blockers and hormones and surgery are absolutely essential to allow you to be your authentic self.

 

[Rolfe]

This is a very relevant thread, as is the article linked in the first tweet.

https://twitter.com/nogenderpredtrs/status/1513783953802469377

 

[Ziggurat]

I have a question. If gender is a social construct and totally hackable and queerable, why are hormones needed to affirm it?

Don't worry, it's a rhetorical question. The answer, of course, is that it's really sex-affirming hormone care.

It's sex-denying hormone care, not sex-affirming hormone care. Testosterone supplements for men with low testosterone, or estrogen for women going through menopause, is sex-affirming. If you're giving sex hormones for the opposite sex, that's not affirmation, that's denial.

Which, if that's what an adult really needs because of severe dysphoria, then sure, go for it. But let's not lie about what it is.

 

[theprestige]

It's sex-denying hormone care, not sex-affirming hormone care. Testosterone supplements for men with low testosterone, or estrogen for women going through menopause, is sex-affirming. If you're giving sex hormones for the opposite sex, that's not affirmation, that's denial.

Which, if that's what an adult really needs because of severe dysphoria, then sure, go for it. But let's not lie about what it is.

Thanks, I like your version better.

 

[Rolfe]

They call it hormone replacement therapy but it isn't that. It's not replacing anything. I don't know what you call it other than cavalier interference with the body's natural processes.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

They call it hormone replacement therapy but it isn't that. It's not replacing anything. I don't know what you call it other than cavalier interference with the body's natural processes.

So is birth control.

"Biological processes are sacred and should not be interfered with" is an argument I've seen many times, but is not one that generally ends with good results for women who want to exercise any reproductive autonomy. Such biological essentialism arguments are probably more at home with fundamental religious ideology than any feminist line of thought.

 

[lionking]

So is birth control.

"Biological processes are sacred and should not be interfered with" is an argument I've seen many times, but is not one that generally ends with good results for women who want to exercise any reproductive autonomy. Such biological essentialism arguments are probably more at home with fundamental religious ideology than any feminist line of thought.

More lecturing women. Great.

 

[Ziggurat]

So is birth control.

Yes, it is. And that has consequences that many women using it do not fully understand.

"Biological processes are sacred and should not be interfered with" is an argument I've seen many times, but is not one that generally ends with good results for women who want to exercise any reproductive autonomy. Such biological essentialism arguments are probably more at home with fundamental religious ideology than any feminist line of thought.

It’s also a straw man. Nobody actually made that argument.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

But, here's the thing.


You know that it's very easy for an adult to get whatever they want. You know that in some jurisdictions, it's fairly easy for a child to get what they want. You know that, to the extent that there are obstacles placed in the way of minors, you consider those to be bigoted transphobic things put in place by evil right wingers....blah, blah, blah.

You know all this, and yet you go through this pretense of questioning whether these are just anecdotes.

It's kind of silly, and kind of annoying.

Do you really not understand why personal anecdotes are not that useful? They're inherently unfalsifiable. It's often impossible to know if the facts being relayed are truthful, either through bias or through intentional dishonesty.

Hey, one time JK Rowling pulled me aside and said that her real ideal solution was for all trans people to be shot and buried in a mass grave. That's wild, huh? What are you going to do? Call me a liar? You might suspect that, but you have no way of proving it, and suggesting as much may well cross into MA prohibited behavior. (This comment is merely a hypothetical and not meant as libel against the outspoken TERF Rowling. No such meeting or comment ever occurred).

But, here's the thing.

Why not just admit what you really want? Why not just be honest about your position? Or....maybe I've misjudged. Here is what I think your position is. Let me know if I'm wrong.

When an adult seeks gender affirming care, whether hormones or surgery, that person should receive it. Perhaps there is consultation with a doctor, but actually requiring a mental health examination or diagnosis would be an unreasonable burden on someone seeking medical care.

I see no reason why a patient describing suffering from gender dysphoria would require some long-term mental health therapy before a prescription of hormone therapy be written.

I have no reason to believe Planned Parenthood's approach to prescribing hormone therapy is inappropriate. Do you? It seems a lot of begging the question that some intense psychoanalysis or longer-term therapy is necessary before prescribing these drugs responsibly.

What planned parenthood describes sounds like a fairly quick medical exam in which the patient and clinician talk about what problems the patient is experiencing and what medical solutions exist, followed by a script for medicine as appropriate. What's the problem?

Hormone therapy is an inherently gradual process. The effects are more pronounced the longer the therapy is ongoing, and more reversible the sooner it is desisted.

As for children, I'm not sure of your exact position. I'm fairly certain, I hope, that you don't think an eleven year old should be able to walk into a doctor's office and ask for, and receive, gender affirming treatments such as hormones, puberty blockers, or surgery. But a 16 year old? I'm not sure what you think.


I'm fairly certain that you do not think that a parent should have absolute control that would prevent their child from seeking, and receiving, gender affriming care, but I don't know exactly what other procedures, in the absence of parental permission, you think ought to be required.


If there is parental permission, I think your position would be that a minor could seek, and receive, any gender affirming care that a doctor advises. There shouldn't be any other "gatekeeper". Or....is that not correct?

Children are trickier because of the generally understood rule that children are kinda stupid. More politely, they have less capacity than adults. That does not mean they are totally incompetent to make their own medical decisions, but are more reliant on the guidance of professionals and guardians to help them make the best possible decisions.

This gets a bit trickier when the assumption that parents always have their children's best interests in mind often fails. It's not a trans specific problem either. Religious fundies often object to their children receiving life saving or life improving care. Weirdo parents might demand that their children carry unwanted pregnancies to term or refuse to get them necessary sexual health services out of perverted sense of moral outrage.

The law occasionally has to deal with conflicts between parents and their (often late teens) children who disagree about what is the best medical care. It's a big mess and no clear answers, but it strikes me as pretty obvious that parents should not have unchallengeable, final say in such decisions, much like they often do not have final says in other serious medical decisions.

These cases are inherently quite complicated and it's hard to make simple rules to govern them.

 

[Rolfe]

So is birth control.

"Biological processes are sacred and should not be interfered with" is an argument I've seen many times, but is not one that generally ends with good results for women who want to exercise any reproductive autonomy. Such biological essentialism arguments are probably more at home with fundamental religious ideology than any feminist line of thought.

So it is. And it also has risks.

Nobody is saying that the body's natural processes must never be interfered with, although I do wonder how anyone who is into the whole "my organic body is a temple" schtick can possibly then go on to fill that body full of synthetic hormones.

There are a lot of reasons to be cautious about the contraceptive pill. These however pale into insignificance before the enormous violence done to a body by filling it up with hormones that are inappropriate for its sex. The endocrine system is a wholly integrated mechanism. If you have a body that is fine-tuned for androgenic hormones, forcing it off-balance by filling it up with oestrogenic/progestogenic hormones is a major insult.

You're taking something that isn't broke, and forcing it to be something it's not. It's telling the way such violence is couched in euphemistic language like "going through the right puberty for my gender identity" and "hormone replacement therapy", when it's more like taking a sledge-hammer to a Rolls-Royce in an attempt to make it look like a Jaguar.