p0lka
Illuminator
I just wanted to find out what other people thought and to get to the crux of the problem. It seems a bit wishywashy at the moment to me, so I wanted to find out more.
Trans women are not women (Part 8)
- Thread starter Meadmaker
- Start date
- Status
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
p0lka
Illuminator
Well, I wasn't sure whether the issue was a transperson joining sports they didn't biologically qualify for? or whether it was something else that was the issue.
Some replies suggest it might be the advantage that is the issue.
edit:
what do you think?
Last edited:
Of course it is the advantage transwomen who went through make puberty have. It is blatantly unfair to women. Some people think this is no big deal. I’m not one of those people.
xjx388
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Dec 1, 2010
- Messages
- 11,392
Mostly advantage. A person born male will always have some degree of advantage over people born female at the elite level of sports. It’s just simple biology.
More broadly, it’s about fairness. Leagues, associations, etc don’t allow athletes to have a certain amount of hormones or other PIDs in their blood. Why do they make an exception specifically for transgender people? IOW, transwomen are allowed to have a higher level of testosterone than ciswomen. There’s one rule for a class of competitors and another rule for another class of competitors -but they are all competing against each other. One could even make the argument that it’s discriminatory against ciswomen.
TurkeysGhost
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Apr 2, 2018
- Messages
- 35,043
I'm not seeing anything in this statement to support a total suspension of medical transition care for minors. They advocate caution and thorough counseling and screening with a special attention paid to possible social influences, not prohibition.
Meanwhile, the US's largest pediatric hospital is ceasing all medical transition services because it happens to be located in Texas:
https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Texas-Children-s-Hospital-pauses-hormone-16978565.php?utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=socialflow&utm_source=twitter.com
Last edited:
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
Do you see an issue? If so, what? If not, why not?
Meadmaker
Unregistered
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2004
- Messages
- 29,033
Sure. I was just making fun of these posts:
Right after they were posted, the next post was about Sweden instituting a near total ban on medical transition for minors, and here we have France saying that transgenderism among teenagers could be a social phenomenon. People want to paint opposition to the trans activist agenda as plot by conservatives, especially religious conservatives, but it's not. Sweden and France don't have a Bible Belt.
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
Others have told you what they think. I'm inclined to tell you what I think, but I'm also very much interested in what you think about the issue itself - not what you think about what other people think about the issue. Do you have any thoughts of your own about the issue?
Rolfe
Adult human female
Lionking said:
It's also that these things are organised on the basis that everyone taking part will be of the same sex, so changing facilities are usually communal. Thomas is wandering around the changing rooms with his penis exposed. This is upsetting the girls.
p0lka
Illuminator
I asked you what you thought, several times now, you still haven't answered.
p0lka
Illuminator
Thomina is wandering around around the changing room with her vagina exposed. This is upsetting the boys.
If the reason to not like communal rooms is 'ooh sexual organs' then fair enough. if it's one type of sexual organ you have an issue with then that's your chip on your shoulder.
Last edited:
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
Me likewise. Seems we're at an impasse. How about we break it? I tell you what I think, you tell me what you think.
Meadmaker
Unregistered
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2004
- Messages
- 29,033
Sort of, but not really.
For all sorts of reasons, a naked women in a men's area and a naked man in a women's area are treated very differently, and "men" and "women" are problematic terms these days, but there's a very strong association with forms of genitalia. Indeed that was once consider definitive.
A great deal of virtual ink has been spent discussing whether these feelings, including the different feelings experienced by and because of different sexes, are instinctive or induced by society. I, personally think it's a combination of both.
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
Let's back that trolley up for a moment.
Some of it is a fairly natural element of modesty around the opposite sex. Humans have been wearing clothes for thousands of years, and nudity is used as a signal of sexual receptivity. So being naked around someone of the opposite sex can very easily be misinterpreted as being open to sexual advances. Modesty regarding nudity is one of the ways that we prevent that.
Additionally, however, there is a pretty material difference in the type of sexual organ. We can play at "true equality" however much we like on line, but in real life, there is a very dramatic difference between males and females. And at the end of the day, there are two things that are rather important.
One is that penises penetrate; vulvas to not. While it is possible for a female to coerce a male into sex, it is incredibly difficult for a female to forcibly rape a male. The same isn't true in the opposite direction.
Second is that there's a difference in physical strength as well as aggression. There's simply no way around the fact that males commit over 90% of all sexual crimes, close to 90% of all violent crimes, as well as the overwhelming majority of domestic violence and child sex abuse. Not all males, certainly... but so massively skewed to male perpetrators that it's a material concern for females - who are disproportionately the victims of male sexual crimes and domestic violence.
It's naïve to think that the risk and the dynamic is identical between males and females. You stick one male into a female changing space, and the male represents a danger and a risk to all of the females in that space. You stick one female into a male changing space, and the males all represent a danger and a risk to that single female.
So this whole line of "oh you're bigoted against genitals, that's YOUR problem" is baloney.
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
And this is exactly why I've been reluctant to engage. There's no interesting discussion of the issue to be had, here. Just JAQ and a hunt for gotchas. I'd be happy to share views with p0lka, but he's signaling that he is uninterested in such a sharing.
p0lka
Illuminator
My first reply to you was
I've already shared.
You are still avoiding answering anything at all.
Last edited:
Referrals to gender clinics have plummeted dramatically in Sweden. About 65% drop without a couple of years if I recall correctly.
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
I've shared my views at great length, over several years, in this thread. In fact, in answering your question I would just be reprising answers I've already given in this thread to similar questions. Even so, I'd be happy to share and share alike our views on transwomen competing in sports as women versus transmen competing as men.
Are you interested in such mutual sharing? If you are, say so. I'll take you at your word and give you my answer. And then you'll give me yours.
Distracted1
Philosopher
Yes. A female human cannot become a Man, nor can a male human become a Woman. Interests of advantage, modesty, and privacy all have a part.
The consequences are greater, however, in the area of sport, as it is unlikely that a Transman will possess the advantages over Men that a Transwoman will possess over Women.
- Status