Trans women are not women (Part 8)

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It's hugely political here too. Today is the day that the Scottish government has introduced its bill to allow anyone to self-declare their sex, no questions asked, anyone who questions this or even remarks on it is an evil transphobe and probably guilty of a hate crime. Twitter is raging about it, women are organising, and there's a big protest on next week.

I have left the political party of which I was a member for nearly 30 years partly over this issue, and I have also stopped voting for them. As Myriad says, this is one of these "hey, what? no, you're going to far, no I can't support this" issues that both left and right-leaning voters can have the same reaction to.

I could come on to this thread and post reams about the evil Scottish government's tactics in ignoring and demonising women and taking "advice" only from the people they pay to give them advice, and refusing a priori even to recognise any lobby group that isn't "trans inclusive". I'm as furious about this as ST is about the politics in his country. But the political aspects are different, and I don't expect people here to sit through my ravings about our political capture by the trans lobby. I'd far rather discuss the actual issues.

(They actually used the "they're going to rape you anyway so it makes no difference if we let them into your protected spaces" line, in the actual parliament. I mean I'm raging, but you probably don't want me raging all over this thread.)

Very good points. I try to keep the political aspects out of this discussion, and focus on the principles involved.

That said though, watching the politics in place in England, Scotland, Ireland, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand roll out has been instrumental in me learning more, and well... becoming far more of a dedicated feminist than I ever thought I would need to be.

Scotland in particular, watching this fiasco unfold over the last couple of years has been shocking. It's so transparently misogynistic, so derisive toward females, so blatantly a violation of female rights, safety, and dignity... I waffle between being outraged into activism, and being depressed into isolation.

But it also gives me the motivation to keep an eye on what is happening in the US, and to keep trying to spread the word to more females and parents every day. If nobody knows this is happening (like in California), nobody can oppose it.
 
Oh, but our First Minister is "a feminist to her fingertips" don't you know? So shut up women, she's got you covered and stop disagreeing with her.
 
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London John has been corrected on this so many times now that I've lost count.

But for the lurkers:

Gender Dysphoria (not dysmorphia) was RECLASSIFED in DSM5. It was removed from the category related to sexual disorders, and is no longer considered a sexual deviancy. This was, by DSM's own evaluation, done to recognize that gender-related issues are not necessarily sexual in nature as well as to reduce stigma associated with a diagnosis seen as a sexual deviancy.
I don't think gender identity disorder was ever viewed as a sexual deviancy per se. This is a quote from the authors of the DSM5 in their article 'Memo Outlining Evidence for Change for Gender Identity Disorder in the DSM-5'

"In the DSM-IV and DSMIV-TR, the three major diagnostic classes (GID, Sexual Dysfunctions,and the Paraphilias) all appeared in the section termed Sexual and Gender Identity Disorders. The placement of these three diagnostic classes in the same section in DSM-IV was probably influenced by several considerations, including clinical utility (e.g., that clinicians and researchers who study these phenomena tend to affiliate at common scientific meetings, tend to publish in the same periodicals, and probably have at least some familiarity with all of the conditions more so than clinicians and researchers who specialize in other areas of interest to psychiatry"

So the main reason identified for the prior placement is clinical utility, not that GID was a form of deviancy. The rationale for changing this structure:

"Yet, it is also recognized that each of these three diagnostic classes have their own specialists and the theoretical overlap among these conditions is far from complete. For example, sexual dysfunctions are of little direct relevance to GID as it manifests in children. Some critics have also complained that inclusion of GID in a section of the manual that also includes the paraphilias is somewhat stigmatizing. Although there can be a co-occurrence of one paraphilia, Transvestic Fetishism, with GID in adolescents and adults, it was the consensus of the entire Sexual and Gender Identity Disorders Work Group that the three diagnostic classes be uncoupled, with each having a separate chapter in DSM-5."

So yes, GID in adults can co-occur with transvestic fetishism, but this was not the main reason for chapter placement, and insufficient to justify retaining it. The main reasons for the change were to remove stigma of associating GIDS (especially in children) with adult sexual disorders and paraphilias, and the decision that all three separate diagnostic classes were not sufficiently related to justify being in the same chapter just for utility. This was of course part of a major revision in which the entire structure of the DSM was changed. For example, OCD and PTSD were no longer classified with anxiety disorders and were moved into their own chapters. This doesn't mean that they are no longer disorders.
It was also reclassified as not being a disorder, but rather a symptom. This was done because there are many potential issues which can express as gender dysphoria, and treatment of the symptom of dysphoria should be based on the underlying cause.
The main point is that the name of GID was changed to remove the word 'disorder' from the title and change it to Gender dysphoria to reduce stigma. However, GID required the presence of dysphoria (distress and impairment) for diagnosis, just as GD does. So the name change was to focus on the distress rather than identity, not that identity per se was previously considered a disorder.

In fact, Zucker et al. explicitly compare GD to disorders which do not have the word 'disorder' in the title "the proposed name change to GD.....is consistent with some other diagnostic terms in the DSM, such as Anorexia Nervosa, Encopresis, and Enuresis, which do not have the term ‘‘disorder’’ in the diagnostic name".

There was a slight conceptual change in the way the diagnosis is viewed, but actually little real change to the diagnostic criteria.

The two misrepresentations of activists are: 1) that having the 'wrong' gender identity per se was previously considered a disorder, but now it isn't, but only the distress associated with this is. In fact, distress (dysphoria) was always required for diagnosis of GID and the diagnostic criteria did not change in any major way 2) that it was moved out of the 'disorders' chapter and into it's own chapter because it's no longer considered a disorder. See quotes above.

I'm not aware that GD is now considered a symptom, although that may be the conceptual change referred to by Zucker et al. Do you have a source for that?
 
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London John has been corrected on this so many times now that I've lost count.

I've actually quoted directly from the rationale for changing the DSM5 diagnoses provided by the working group who did it, multiple times. LJ has never responded. I seriously doubt that he ever even looks at anything that contradicts his narrative.

Interestingly, LJ disagrees with Zucker, the Chair of the DSM5 working group on the issue of conversion therapy. LJ seems to believe that conversion therapy bans for gender identity are just like conversion therapy bans for sexual orientation. Zucker opposes including gender identity in conversion therapy bans and stated politicians wrongly conflate sexual orientation and gender identity. LJ also insists that politicians have consulted thoroughly with experts on the scientific basis for such legislation, while Zucker has said that the background research on the legislation ignores all the relevant science on gender dysphoria (as with the AAP policy, it refers only to research on sexual orientation).

So LJ appears to be simultaneously appealing to the authority of the DSM5 while also apparently thinking he knows better than the world's leading expert on GD who actually wrote it.
 
There have been some recent preliminary efforts by cognitive and child psychologist on this front, suggesting that this parent-instilled confusion can result in creating severe dysphoria in puberty.

It would be interesting to see research reports on that.

In the "nature versus nurture" debate, trans ideology requires that the cause be 100% nature. If "nurture" played a role, it would be a lot harder to say that the pregnant person was "really" a man.
 
From SEGM today:

"The National Academy of Medicine in France has issued a press release in which it cautions medical practitioners that the growing cases of transgender identity in young people are often socially-mediated and that great caution in treatment is needed. The Academy draws attention to the fact that hormonal and surgical treatments carry health risks and have permanent effects, and that it is not possible to distinguish a durable trans identity from a passing phase of an adolescent's development."

A translation of the French press release is available on their site.
 
"The National Academy of Medicine in France has issued a press release in which it cautions medical practitioners that the growing cases of transgender identity in young people are often socially-mediated and that great caution in treatment is needed.

That's a huge concern for me. It's become trendy, and which unpopular teen doesn't want to jump on board a hot trend?

I have kids who are around trans people every day and they're convinced at least some of them have been influenced by the trend rather than the brain.

I think that's borne out by the fact that the rate of F -> M trans appear to be declining as a percentage of all trans, which wouldn't happen if it was all genuine.
 
I don't think gender identity disorder was ever viewed as a sexual deviancy per se. This is a quote from the authors of the DSM5 in their article 'Memo Outlining Evidence for Change for Gender Identity Disorder in the DSM-5'

"In the DSM-IV and DSMIV-TR, the three major diagnostic classes (GID, Sexual Dysfunctions,and the Paraphilias) all appeared in the section termed Sexual and Gender Identity Disorders. The placement of these three diagnostic classes in the same section in DSM-IV was probably influenced by several considerations, including clinical utility (e.g., that clinicians and researchers who study these phenomena tend to affiliate at common scientific meetings, tend to publish in the same periodicals, and probably have at least some familiarity with all of the conditions more so than clinicians and researchers who specialize in other areas of interest to psychiatry"

So the main reason identified for the prior placement is clinical utility, not that GID was a form of deviancy. The rationale for changing this structure:

"Yet, it is also recognized that each of these three diagnostic classes have their own specialists and the theoretical overlap among these conditions is far from complete. For example, sexual dysfunctions are of little direct relevance to GID as it manifests in children. Some critics have also complained that inclusion of GID in a section of the manual that also includes the paraphilias is somewhat stigmatizing. Although there can be a co-occurrence of one paraphilia, Transvestic Fetishism, with GID in adolescents and adults, it was the consensus of the entire Sexual and Gender Identity Disorders Work Group that the three diagnostic classes be uncoupled, with each having a separate chapter in DSM-5."

So yes, GID in adults can co-occur with transvestic fetishism, but this was not the main reason for chapter placement, and insufficient to justify retaining it. The main reasons for the change were to remove stigma of associating GIDS (especially in children) with adult sexual disorders and paraphilias, and the decision that all three separate diagnostic classes were not sufficiently related to justify being in the same chapter just for utility. This was of course part of a major revision in which the entire structure of the DSM was changed. For example, OCD and PTSD were no longer classified with anxiety disorders and were moved into their own chapters. This doesn't mean that they are no longer disorders.

The main point is that the name of GID was changed to remove the word 'disorder' from the title and change it to Gender dysphoria to reduce stigma. However, GID required the presence of dysphoria (distress and impairment) for diagnosis, just as GD does. So the name change was to focus on the distress rather than identity, not that identity per se was previously considered a disorder.

In fact, Zucker et al. explicitly compare GD to disorders which do not have the word 'disorder' in the title "the proposed name change to GD.....is consistent with some other diagnostic terms in the DSM, such as Anorexia Nervosa, Encopresis, and Enuresis, which do not have the term ‘‘disorder’’ in the diagnostic name".

There was a slight conceptual change in the way the diagnosis is viewed, but actually little real change to the diagnostic criteria.

The two misrepresentations of activists are: 1) that having the 'wrong' gender identity per se was previously considered a disorder, but now it isn't, but only the distress associated with this is. In fact, distress (dysphoria) was always required for diagnosis of GID and the diagnostic criteria did not change in any major way 2) that it was moved out of the 'disorders' chapter and into it's own chapter because it's no longer considered a disorder. See quotes above.

I'm not aware that GD is now considered a symptom, although that may be the conceptual change referred to by Zucker et al. Do you have a source for that?

Good clarification, thank you.

No, I don't have a source, it was something explained to me by someone else who I assumed knew what they were talking about given their clinical background. It's entirely possible that either they were misinformed, or that I misunderstood.
 
From SEGM today:

"The National Academy of Medicine in France has issued a press release in which it cautions medical practitioners that the growing cases of transgender identity in young people are often socially-mediated and that great caution in treatment is needed. The Academy draws attention to the fact that hormonal and surgical treatments carry health risks and have permanent effects, and that it is not possible to distinguish a durable trans identity from a passing phase of an adolescent's development."

A translation of the French press release is available on their site.

The invidious effects of conervative religions have gotten to France now. Will they stop at nothing?
 
sorry twas a venting post.

I'm thinking it might be a cryptic comment about what anyone needs to do before they access any form of medical or surgical "transition".
Yes. My youngest (cos of internet) wanted puberty blockers, It didn't happen. Now, post puberty they are fine in their body.

One of my adult daughters is male, they were ordering hormones online as a late teen which they should not have done but it happened and they are happy too.

Grow up before you make these choices.
 

"To swim as herself", reads one caption.

Never mind that she can swim as herself all day, every day, down at the public pool, or in the privacy of her own home if she has a pool there. Nothing about swimming as herself requires competing as a woman against other women in an elite women's sports league.
 
would it be equally incorrect for a female to man person to enter male sports?

Is it the advantage that's the issue? or some other issue?

This is probably something you're going to have to reason out for yourself, and come to your own conclusion. Maybe then share your reasoning and your conclusion here.

Are you asking any specific person in this thread what their personal conclusion is? Just wondering aloud? Hoping for some sort of consensus answer? Looking for some basis to dispute the "advantage" argument?
 
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would it be equally incorrect for a female to man person to enter male sports?

Is it the advantage that's the issue? or some other issue?

I can't speak for anyone else, but the advantage is the only issue that I see for sports. An FtM in male sports wouldn't bother me. An MtF in female sports does bother me.

I think that's a very common, and probably universal, opinion among people who participate in this thread and object to males in female sports.

ETA: and an FtM in female sports doesn't bother me, but if testosterone or other performance enhancing drugs are involved, those should be treated as disqualifying for the female division. In the male division, I'm not sure if artificial testosterone for an FtM athlete should be treated as disqualifying. I don't know enough to provide an intelligent response on the subject. My gut instinct would be to say that it is not disqualifying, but I'll leave that call to people more knowledgeable on the subject matter.
 
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I can't speak for anyone else, but the advantage is the only issue that I see for sports. An FtM in male sports wouldn't bother me. An MtF in female sports does bother me.

I think that's a very common, and probably universal, opinion among people who participate in this thread and object to males in female sports.

ETA: and an FtM in female sports doesn't bother me, but if testosterone or other performance enhancing drugs are involved, those should be treated as disqualifying for the female division. In the male division, I'm not sure if artificial testosterone for an FtM athlete should be treated as disqualifying. I don't know enough to provide an intelligent response on the subject. My gut instinct would be to say that it is not disqualifying, but I'll leave that call to people more knowledgeable on the subject matter.
Not universal, but I'd like to see what p0lka actually thinks on the subject.
 
would it be equally incorrect for a female to man person to enter male sports?

Is it the advantage that's the issue? or some other issue?

Mostly the advantage. The records for fastest, highest, whatever-est are all held by men. Women compete for women's records. Thomas is a male-bodied person competing against female-bodied people. Thomas had even been on the men's swim team for a while, so Thomas isn't even some male-bodied person who couldn't make the men's team.

A transman would not have any advantage, so if they were foolish enough to enter competitions they could not win, I personally, don't care.

Sports ideally are about fair competition. Are women's sports for anybody who thinks they're a woman or just for women who were born women.

Way upthread was an article about trans inclusiveness and fairness in sports and its conclusion was that you can't have both.
 
This quote is appropriate

"Having lived for the past 30 years, I know if I'd had surgery at the age of 22, and then at 24 went on the tour, no genetic woman in the world would have been able to come close to me. And so I've reconsidered my opinion."
 
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