The Russian Invasion of the Ukraine.

[MarkCorrigan]

We could be seeing the emergence of some kind of national socialism.

Needs a snappier name though.

 

[angrysoba]

We could be seeing the emergence of some kind of national socialism.

Dugin literally refers to it as National Bolshevism.

Here's the flag:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Bolshevik_Party#/media/File:National_Bolshevik_Party_flag.svg

 

[Ryokan]

Eastern Ukraine joins Russia, western and central Ukraine joins NATO.

Everybody happy!!! War over.

I don't think the people of Eastern Ukraine would be very happy.

 

[erwinl]

Violence is unacceptable. If some people want to immigrate to the northern part of Belgium, they should request a visa, and follow the local laws.

That's cute.
Especially as Belgium has (or now had) a group of people in their very territory, who were forced to become Belgian, but who really wanted to have their own country and whose local laws were abolished by the Belgian authorities at the stroke of a pen. Two years ago I visited the grave of the man who struggled his entire life to make it happen for these people. A great man he was. Perhaps a bit of a naieve dreamer, but still a great man.

But.
Anyway.
Violence is unacceptable.

Thank you very much.

 

[psionl0]

I would normally agree, but my blood still boils after the years of absolutely criminal propaganda that RT and their ilk engaged in during the most heated period of the Syrian civil war. They got away with it almost completely clean.

And yeah it was a very messy geopolitical situation where the bad guys/good guys were not always clearly distinguishable or visible for many people as they are in the current conflict. RT was one of the biggest reasons for that.

I barely knew RT and didn't care less about them until this censorship push started in earnest. Now I have found myself viewing a few RT YouTubes just to see how egregious their reporting is.

That's what happens when you give a hitherto insignificant news source free publicity. Nothing they say will change what I understand about the Ukranian war but the same can't be said about everybody who was previously uninterested in this news site.

 

[timhau]

Bin Laden was in a poorly guarded house in a poor part of the world. Once they knew where he was, it still took a team to take him out and it wasn't without issues.

Sure, but he didn't have an inner circle or a court of insanely rich people who were bleeding money because of what he did. If Putin loses the oligarchs, he's an ex-Putin.

(No, I have no idea how to make a ras-Putin.)

 

[JoeMorgue]

We need to airdrop the actor who played Varys, in full costume and in character, into Moscow to give Putin the "Where does power lie?" speech from Game of Thrones.

 

[timhau]

I barely knew RT and didn't care less about them until this censorship push started in earnest. Now I have found myself viewing a few RT YouTubes just to see how egregious their reporting is.

That's what happens when you give a hitherto insignificant news source free publicity. Nothing they say will change what I understand about the Ukranian war but the same can't be said about everybody who was previously uninterested in this news site.

How does the number of cranky contrarians who "just recently found RT" compare with the number of people who won't fall down the rabbit hole because they don't get RT?

 

[Tero]

Okay question I have zero illusions I receive a logical or indeed even coherent answer to.

The USSR broke up about 23 years ago. Why now? Why not in 1992 or 2042?

He is getting to about 70. He feels frustrated about great Russia. He may be looking for a successor by 2024, even if he runs again. He needs to train someone to be the new tough man.

He will not settle for no Nato and withdrawal from Ukraine. He needs to hang on to some land to claim victory. Make Kyiv like Berlin was before. Isolated.

 

[Michel H]

I made an on topic comparison to history. You are the one who dragged your bizarre hobby-horse into the discussion yet again.

I believe that brief discussions about history, and in particular about the history of WWII, are on topic in this thread, because we can learn a lot from history, and learn to avoid some mistakes which were made in the past.

Obviously, an extended discussion of World War II wouldn't be appropriate in this thread (which is not about WWII).

 

[Michel H]

Not seeking to join NATO might be out of the picture, now that Russia has invaded and proved the necessity of NATO membership.

I have a better idea: the Russian areas of Ukraine join Russia, the rest of Ukraine joins NATO. Sounds fair to me, both sides get what they want. Thoughts?

Your idea seems reasonable to me. It is really with ideas of this kind that some progress is achieved, in my opinion (not always trying to figure out the most devastating sanctions against Russia).

 

[theprestige]

Dugin literally refers to it as National Bolshevism.

Here's the flag:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Bolshevik_Party#/media/File:National_Bolshevik_Party_flag.svg

Huh. Here I am cracking wise, and it turns out the situation is already beyond parody.

 

[theprestige]

Violence is unacceptable.

You lie. It's obvious that violence is totally acceptable to you. It's fighting back against violence that you don't accept.

 

[slyjoe]

I believe that brief discussions about history, and in particular about the history of WWII, are on topic in this thread, because we can learn a lot from history, and learn to avoid some mistakes which were made in the past.

Obviously, an extended discussion of World War II wouldn't be appropriate in this thread (which is not about WWII).

How about more recent history? Like the breakup of the Soviet Union; Putin calls that the greatest catastrophe of the 20th century.

When the break up happened, Ukraine gave up its nukes and Russia kept theirs, all based on the AGREEMENT that Ukraine borders would not be violated by Russia.

So, let's hear about what AGREEMENT you would propose for the current situation taking into acouunt what happened when the Soviet Union split up.

 

[Michel H]

You lie. It's obvious that violence is totally acceptable to you. It's fighting back against violence that you don't accept.

My reply should be understood in the context raised by erwinl.

In addition, I really don't think that the violence currently displayed by Vladimir Putin in Ukraine is acceptable or justified. But this doesn't mean that political concessions by Ukraine should be automatically ruled out, because Putin has done something very bad.

 

[Arcade22]

I barely knew RT and didn't care less about them until this censorship push started in earnest. Now I have found myself viewing a few RT YouTubes just to see how egregious their reporting is.

That's what happens when you give a hitherto insignificant news source free publicity. Nothing they say will change what I understand about the Ukranian war but the same can't be said about everybody who was previously uninterested in this news site.

Oh so we should just tolerate Russian propaganda and disinformation? Let them lie and defame people every single day while pretending to be journalists?

Thankfully we are not that stupid. Freedom of speech has its limits, such as spreading lies and propaganda on behalf of a increasingly belligerent hostile power.

 

[Hercules56]

Your idea seems reasonable to me. It is really with ideas of this kind that some progress is achieved, in my opinion (not always trying to figure out the most devastating sanctions against Russia).

I do not believe for a second that Putin would allow ANY part of Ukraine or Moldova to join NATO without threatening nuclear war. But I think its a fair offer.

He might also threaten nukes if Finland joins NATO. Putin may no longer be rational.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Again one day, God willing, I'll find a woman who loves me as much as internet free speech advocates love Nazis, Racists, and Totalitarians.

 

[TellyKNeasuss]

This why it is important to often remind Ukraine that it can probably stop this painful experience by making very reasonable concessions: Crimea belongs to Russia, the two republics are independant, Ukraine won't join NATO for a while and so on.

It apparently has to once again be pointed out to you that there is little reason to believe that Putin invaded Ukraine solely to "protect the rights" of an "independent Crimea" and those 2 supposed "republics".

Your proposal accomplishes nothing more than giving Putin territory that would make a future invasion of Ukraine easier while specifically ruling out the most powerful means by which a "promise" by Putin to never invade Ukraine again could be enforced. This is exactly analogous to giving Hitler the Sudetenland: the result made the remaining portion of Czechoslovakia less defensible.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

There is nothing in International Law that stipulates that parts of countries can just secede if they hold a referendum.
Michel's argument about Crimea is just propaganda without any legal basis.