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Cont: Cancel culture IRL Part 2

If you get someone fired, then you took away their livelihood, and that is on you. If he or she spends the time to seek and find another job, then good for them for reinstating their livelihood, but that is another matter. It takes time and money to search for another job and to move. The other thing to consider is that not all jobs are equal and interchangeable. For example, Professor Kilborn may find work at another law school, but there is no guarantee that it will be equal regarding professional opportunity.

An excellent explanation for why widespread use of at-will employment is a bad idea, though I'm not sure why people leveling fair criticism of other people for bad behavior deserve so much blame, rather than employers who treat their employees as 100% disposable assets.
 
If you get someone fired, then you took away their livelihood, and that is on you.

It's more on the person who decided to spout weird conspiracy bs and the person who then decided to fire the conspiridiot.

If he or she spends the time to seek and find another job, then good for them for reinstating their livelihood, but that is another matter. It takes time and money to search for another job and to move. The other thing to consider is that not all jobs are equal and interchangeable. For example, Professor Kilborn may find work at another law school, but there is no guarantee that it will be equal regarding professional opportunity.

A person loses a job, looks for a new one. Where is the problem? That no one wants to hire them because of weird conspiracy bs? Well....looks like that is on the conspiridiot once again..

Another case of "Free speech for me but not for thee"
 
And if some "conservative" uses his freedom of speech to get a leftist fired, you will be all about "Well, here in this case, it was justified"
You appear to be assuming that I object to cancellations on ideological grounds, because they are often coming from the left. This is untrue, as I already mentioned upthread.

The rest of us...should be able to understand that the process of trying to get people in power to withdraw support from folks like the Dixie Chicks or Valentina Azarova—because of their unacceptable political views—involves using the same tactics for similar reasons, even though it is coming from the right and being used against the left rather than the other way about.
 
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You appear to be assuming that I object to cancellations on ideological grounds, because they are often coming from the left. This is untrue, as I already mentioned upthread.

No, I'm assuming that you are playing the good old game named "I want to appear as a centrist while I clearly and only criticize leftists". Evidence? Every single one of your posts in this forum. Seen this childish game a lot lately.
 
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No conspiracy theory

It's more on the person who decided to spout weird conspiracy bs and the person who then decided to fire the conspiridiot.



A person loses a job, looks for a new one. Where is the problem? That no one wants to hire them because of weird conspiracy bs? Well....looks like that is on the conspiridiot once again..

Another case of "Free speech for me but not for thee"
"Kilborn’s lawsuit seems to involve two tensions—the university’s obligation to ensure students feel safe and respected, and recognizing that law school should train students for difficult situations, says Fitzgerald Bramwell, a Chicago lawyer who represents faculty in employment disputes.

"'If the facts are as reported in the complaint, I don’t know that he treated students with anything other than dignity,' says Bramwell. Regarding sensitivity training, he adds that universities usually keep that confidential, and this situation is unique because Kilborn, who has been working with the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education’s faculty defense fund, is publicizing it." ABA Journal

This case has its fair share of complexity. However, it does not involve the professor saying or writing the n-word (as was suggested well upthread). Nor does it involve any spouting of conspiracy theories.
 
This case has its fair share of complexity. However, it does not involve the professor saying or writing the n-word (as was suggested well upthread). Nor does it involve any spouting of conspiracy theories.

Nah, it's not that complicated...some random guy with a victim complex spouted worthless bs and is now very sad that he has to face the consequences.
 
For the 50th time so it can be ignored.

Company A employees Person A. Person A says something I don't like. I stop watching/purchasing Company A's products. Company A decides they would rather have my business so they fire Person A.

What went "wrong" in that process? What should have happened differently? And when I ask that question I mean what changes in the actual sequence of events not yet another mush mouthed troll mumbling about unrelated concepts.
 
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(…)Professor Kilborn may find work at another law school, but there is no guarantee that it will be equal regarding professional opportunity.

The conversation has been jumping around a bunch and subjects are getting mixed up. Kilborn hasn’t lost his job, he’s the one suing about being told to do sensitivity training, and it sounds like the whole thing is still being looked at by the school to see if the faculty review guys think he even needs it or not. That particular story seems very tempest in teapot-y and I expect it to shake out into basically nothing. It does seem to show that second hand and game-of-telephone distorted complaints can trigger schools to grab their asses, but although a short paid suspension and an overzealous sentence to sensitivity training is indeed IMO an overkill response, it is also not a falling sky kind of thing.

ETA: did a little more reading on this one and it does crack me up how many people on both sides of it are tripping over themselves to make their case. The accusations are overblown enough on their own without going off on tangents like ‘plenty of lynchings had nothing to do with black people.’ If it was me I’d be concentrating on how easily people can get caught up in confirmation bias and bandwagon type thinking. I feel like some of the students involved in criticizing the professor are going to grow up to feel very ashamed that they allowed themselves to be caught up in a distorted narrative and then went and told Jesse Jackson about it as though it was all straight fact.

Took a minute but I found a pretty good write up critical of the school’s actions without getting all weird and partisan about it. https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2021/11/10/when-suspending-professor-isnt-enough

Double ETA: I feel like this one is just more ‘zero tolerance’ flavored stuff, where schools try to duck any responsibility for trying to apply nuance by just not using any. It’s the ‘suspend the kid for biting a pop-tart into the shape of a gun’ strategy. He said the word cockroach. He said the word homicidal. He said the word lynching. Bingo!
 
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I provided half a dozen examples of people using their freedom of speech to get Andy fired, plenty more exist for those who care to look. Are you seriously suggesting it is perfectly ethical to say anything one is legally free to say?

When you start applying your vague concerns about "ethics" and "morality" consistently, I'll be open to having this discussion.
 
In case you're wondering if Disney made the right call to cut bait on Carano, she's on social media suggesting that the Russian invasion and resulting war in Ukraine is another manufactured crisis, like covid, meant to keep the population under control

https://twitter.com/SonnyBunch/status/1498122418531016709?cxt=HHwWioC5qd-Zs8opAAAA

That's what Disney had to look forward to if they continued to associate with this person, an increasingly more insane and conspiratorial public presence from this loon. Considering their options, it's not hard to see why a clean break was what they chose.

d4m10n, can we get your take on the ethics of what Carano is doing?
 
If you get someone fired, then you took away their livelihood, and that is on you. If he or she spends the time to seek and find another job, then good for them for reinstating their livelihood, but that is another matter. It takes time and money to search for another job and to move. The other thing to consider is that not all jobs are equal and interchangeable. For example, Professor Kilborn may find work at another law school, but there is no guarantee that it will be equal regarding professional opportunity.

How does one "get someone fired"? Please be specific.
 
"Kilborn’s lawsuit seems to involve two tensions—the university’s obligation to ensure students feel safe and respected, and recognizing that law school should train students for difficult situations, says Fitzgerald Bramwell, a Chicago lawyer who represents faculty in employment disputes.

"'If the facts are as reported in the complaint, I don’t know that he treated students with anything other than dignity,' says Bramwell. Regarding sensitivity training, he adds that universities usually keep that confidential, and this situation is unique because Kilborn, who has been working with the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education’s faculty defense fund, is publicizing it." ABA Journal

This case has its fair share of complexity. However, it does not involve the professor saying or writing the n-word (as was suggested well upthread). Nor does it involve any spouting of conspiracy theories.

If the facts bear out in Kilborn's favor, he wins his lawsuit. The system works.
 
Let's get fired up

How does one "get someone fired"? Please be specific.
"The Black Law Students Association, in particular, is demanding that the professor, Jason Kilborn, be fired." ISE

"Instead, they are demanding the university fire him for rendering the classroom an unsafe space. The administration is looking into the matter, and [composer Bright] Sheng has stepped down from teaching the class for the time being." Reason.

This discussion is getting me FIREd up. it might be time to hit their tip jar again.
 
"The Black Law Students Association, in particular, is demanding that the professor, Jason Kilborn, be fired." ISE

"Instead, they are demanding the university fire him for rendering the classroom an unsafe space. The administration is looking into the matter, and [composer Bright] Sheng has stepped down from teaching the class for the time being." Reason.

This discussion is getting me FIREd up. it might be time to hit their tip jar again.

I'm still missing the part where society didn't work exactly as it always has, as in the concept of what a society is, or what needs to be fixed or addressed here.
 
"The Black Law Students Association, in particular, is demanding that the professor, Jason Kilborn, be fired." ISE

"Instead, they are demanding the university fire him for rendering the classroom an unsafe space. The administration is looking into the matter, and [composer Bright] Sheng has stepped down from teaching the class for the time being." Reason.

This discussion is getting me FIREd up. it might be time to hit their tip jar again.

Black people using free speech? Outrageous! The bill of rights is for whites only.
 
I am on board with free speech

Black people using free speech? Outrageous! The bill of rights is for whites only.
I don't know of anyone who said that the students should not have their full first amendment rights. If UIC were to expel these students for their words, I would be emailing the students to suggest that they contact FIRE, despite my complete disagreement with the students' sentiments. Let me use a different example to illustrate something similar. Some years ago some fraternity students at U. of Oklahoma said something that was ugly and racist, and two students were expelled. In an essay that originally appeared at Huffington Post, Professor Geoffrey Stone (U. of Chicago law school) wrote, "Needless to say, such language is abhorrent. But the University of Oklahoma cannot constitutionally expel the students for this expression.

"The Supreme Court has made it quite clear that public universities cannot constitutionally discipline their students for speech merely because it offends the university's sense of decency." link
 
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"The Black Law Students Association, in particular, is demanding that the professor, Jason Kilborn, be fired." ISE

"Instead, they are demanding the university fire him for rendering the classroom an unsafe space. The administration is looking into the matter, and [composer Bright] Sheng has stepped down from teaching the class for the time being." Reason.

This discussion is getting me FIREd up. it might be time to hit their tip jar again.

I'm still missing the link between demanding someone be fired and them actually getting fired. Anyone can demand someone be fired, but that doesn't mean that demand will manifest itself in reality. The OP in the original thread is a prime example. Someone demanded that Kroger Andy be fired. Kroger Andy wasn't fired.

So again, how does one "get someone fired", as in doing something that will always, 100% of the time, directly lead to someone getting fired?
 
I don't know of anyone who said that the students should not have their full first amendment rights. If UIC were to expel these students for their words, I would be emailing the students to suggest that they contact FIRE, despite my complete disagreement with the students' sentiments. Let me use a different example to illustrate something similar. Some years ago some fraternity students at U. of Oklahoma said something that was ugly and racist, and two students were expelled. In an essay that originally appeared at Huffington Post, Professor Geoffrey Stone (U. of Chicago law school) wrote, "Needless to say, such language is abhorrent. But the University of Oklahoma cannot constitutionally expel the students for this expression.

"The Supreme Court has made it quite clear that public universities cannot constitutionally discipline their students for speech merely because it offends the university's sense of decency." link

Seems like there's already a system in place to adjudicate these matters. It's not clear what the problem is beyond that.
 
wrong paradigm for higher education

For the 50th time so it can be ignored.

Company A employees Person A. Person A says something I don't like. I stop watching/purchasing Company A's products. Company A decides they would rather have my business so they fire Person A.

What went "wrong" in that process? What should have happened differently? And when I ask that question I mean what changes in the actual sequence of events not yet another mush mouthed troll mumbling about unrelated concepts.
I don't think that your paradigm entirely applies to higher education, especially at public universities in the U.S. One, a consumer can educate himself or herself before he or she buys something. However, the students are at least partially ignorant of the subject matter; they are not educated consumers, by definition. Two, tuition pays for a fraction of the cost; state governments also pay a portion (these fractions have changed over time). Therefore, the student is not the only consumer. Three, specifically in regard to the Jason Kilborn some of the complaints came from students who were not in his class. If they get a say, then maybe every student at UIC should get a say.
 

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