• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part V

Status
Not open for further replies.
Vixen said:
Er. Do you know what an angle of 70° looks like? The gradient that a person can walk up in comfort is not much more than 40° at most. When is the last time you managed to walk or crawl up a wall, as the deck now was?
Click to expand...


LOL you have no idea whatsoever.

On a passenger ship such as this, most of the fixtures and fittings are firmly fixed to the structure, in order to prevent them from moving around in rough seas and injuring people. This would have provided one of several means for passengers and crew to "climb" to what was now the top surface of the ship - the port beam. I dare say, unfortunately, that most older people or people with mobility/excess-weight issues would have found it difficult to make such a journey. And indeed, virtually no people in those groups survived.
 
Vixen said:
Because many witness statements mention bangs.
Click to expand...
Provide some references for witnesses who mentioned 'bangs' and whose testimony was then taken by the JAIC and reworded so as to replace the word 'bangs' with the phrase 'metallic thuds'.

Specifics please.
 
LondonJohn said:
You've entirely missed the point. Once again.

The point was: why would it have been uniquely difficult for the engineer Treu to make his way to the (now-horizontal) port beam of the ship, when plenty of other passengers and crew had managed to do precisely that?
Click to expand...

The ones who got to safety did so in a small time frame. Either they raced up from Deck 1 on seeing water or they were already on the promenade decks or in one of the more expensive cabins on decks five and six, or crew deck 7.

The beam of Estonia is: Beam 24.21 m (79 ft 5 in)

If the funnel is in the centre of the width, anyone coming out at the funnel as to make their way by either up to twelve metres or 35 feet.


If the beam is now the draught, how did Treu manage to get to the side if he came out of the funnel and the ship was now 70°?
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Because their jobs didn't exist any longer. The ship had sunk
Click to expand...

And note that Erich Moik was not on Estonia and didn't have to reapply for his job, because at the time he had just been appointed as captain on Diana II (that he then commanded under the new name Mare Balticum for a few years).
 
JesseCuster said:
Provide some references for witnesses who mentioned 'bangs' and whose testimony was then taken by the JAIC and reworded so as to replace the word 'bangs' with the phrase 'metallic thuds'.

Specifics please.
Click to expand...

This was done in Thread One and cut as it was 'too long'.

Here is a short excerpt (it is much much longer):

- I was at a karaoke bar with a friend when I heard an unusual sound. I thought it sounded like an explosion. I left immediately. It was a matter of seconds or minutes to get out. That ship collapsed so quickly and no one came to help.
Altti Hakanpää and his friend tried to shout at people. The sight still troubles him.


. Ulla Marianne Tenman - cabin 1098 - 30 years old

- was in her cabin before the casualty;
- some time before the casualty heard several hard bangs and something beating against something which she considered to be strange and dangerous, therefore she decided to go up to deck 7 and wait to see what would happen;
- after she had been sometime on deck 7 she heard a heavy bang and subsequently the vessel heeled to starboard.


Carl-Erik Reintamm - cabin 1094 - 26 years old

- went to bed at 23.00-23.30 hours (probably Swedish time);
- woke up when shortly afterwards he suddenly heard 2 strong, strange noises, scraping noises which came from below as if the vessel proceeded through ice (which he had heard many times before);
- he realised that it could not be ice but had to be something different below water and jumped out of the bed while the vessel heeled about 10° to starboard;
- he also saw 'something white or bright' moving away through the water causing its own waves.


. Carl Övberg - cabin 1049:


- after a little while he suddenly heard the starting up noise of an hydraulic pump or pumps followed by the clicking of valves and then the typical noise created by an hydraulic system under load;
- simultaneously he heard the banging of sledge hammers;
- the noises came probably from forward;
- the hydraulic under load noise faded away and came back again whilst the sledge-hammer banging noise more or less continued. Both the hydraulic noise and the sledge-hammer banging noise continued for ca. 10-15 minutes whilst the other banging noises, then heard already for some 20-25 minutes, also continued;
- the hydraulic noise and the sledge-hammer noise stopped with a short, sharp metallic crash which gave him the impression that something heavy, metallic had broken;
- after a 'silence' of 30-40 seconds the next really extreme crash followed in connection with an abrupt stopping of the ferry which was so 'sudden' that he was thrown against the front wall of his bed;
it was a short, sharp intense crash as if the ship had struck against something;

Holger Wachtmeister - cabin 1047 - 41 years old

- he was awakened by a scraping noise and a hard bang - the scraping noise continued;
Click to expand...
 
Captain_Swoop said:
How many passenger were still aboard by the time the ship was on it's side?
Most never made it out of the ship at all, those that survived were out and in to the water by then.
Have you read the report?
Click to expand...

Paul Barney was one such. He was already on the upper decks when he thought the ship had hit a rock and he was awoken. He says he began to walk along the side (he was near the stern outside the cafeteria) and had to be careful to avoid stepping on the windows. He was one of the first there and he had to walk along the side.
 

Attachments

  • Estoniaramp.jpg
    Estoniaramp.jpg
    118 KB · Views: 3
Marras said:
I don't think his name was removed. It's far more likely that his name was never on the official list that was compiled at Turku.

His name was on other lists, compiled by other people based on whatever random information they got from anywhere.
Click to expand...


Yes - I didn't mean to imply that his name was ever on any official list. But somewhere in the "fog of war" that night, and in the chaos of multiple helicopters taking survivors to multiple points on shore, Piht somehow incorrectly became mentioned in some capacity as a survivor.

But as you say, once the official lists were compiled - and these were properly checked and verified - then of course Piht's name never appeared. Because he was never a survivor. Because he was never picked up by a helicopter and brought ashore. Because he died, either trapped in the ship as it sank, or carried away by rough seas to die of hypothermia or drowning.
 
GlennB said:
Then your reference had nothing to do with Estonia? Does this mean you're happy to accept that its windows might have been smashed by waves?
Click to expand...

AIUI the standard of glass on these roro sea ferries was that it had to withstand a windspeed of 41 m/s.

The Hamburg one was a river boat and likely had no great safety features.
 
JesseCuster said:
Provide some references for witnesses who mentioned 'bangs' and whose testimony was then taken by the JAIC and reworded so as to replace the word 'bangs' with the phrase 'metallic thuds'.

Specifics please.
Click to expand...

Vixen said:
This was done in Thread One and cut as it was 'too long'.

Here is a short excerpt (it is much much longer):
Click to expand...

Why don't you provide a source for your "interviews"?

That is taken from the "Group of experts" site at https://sok.riksarkivet.se/estonia?...1DEA-CA82-4A9B-8905-29E2B14D755F&tab=post#tab

And we can see that it's not interviews by JAIC, or by the police.

The interviews were either carried out by a member of this 'Group of Experts', by the Finnish lawyer Henrik Gahmberg or by the Estonian journalist Juri Liim in close co-operation or in the presence of a member of this 'Group of Experts'.
Click to expand...

and

The relevant parts of some of the statements and all of the interviews have been translated into English and are attached as enclosures.
Click to expand...

So it's clear for all to see that what is quoted by you is from German Group of Experts, and not what they said to the police or JAIC. It's also not in the original language, but rather translated, another reason why this does not support your claim.
 
Vixen said:
The ones who got to safety did so in a small time frame. Either they raced up from Deck 1 on seeing water or they were already on the promenade decks or in one of the more expensive cabins on decks five and six, or crew deck 7.

The beam of Estonia is: Beam 24.21 m (79 ft 5 in)

If the funnel is in the centre of the width, anyone coming out at the funnel as to make their way by either up to twelve metres or 35 feet.


If the beam is now the draught, how did Treu manage to get to the side if he came out of the funnel and the ship was now 70°?
Click to expand...


He walked along the now-horizontal outer surface of the funnel, then used fixed railings and other fittings to climb up to the top of the ship (the port beam).

You seem to be implying that this was an impossible feat. It was not. Especially to a fit male.
 
Vixen said:
AIUI the standard of glass on these roro sea ferries was that it had to withstand a windspeed of 41 m/s.

The Hamburg one was a river boat and likely had no great safety features.
Click to expand...


Oh here we go again: another un-sourced "AIUI".......
 
LondonJohn said:
Yes - I didn't mean to imply that his name was ever on any official list. But somewhere in the "fog of war" that night, and in the chaos of multiple helicopters taking survivors to multiple points on shore, Piht somehow incorrectly became mentioned in some capacity as a survivor.

But as you say, once the official lists were compiled - and these were properly checked and verified - then of course Piht's name never appeared. Because he was never a survivor. Because he was never picked up by a helicopter and brought ashore. Because he died, either trapped in the ship as it sank, or carried away by rough seas to die of hypothermia or drowning.
Click to expand...

Pure conjecture. So because he suddenly vanished it is all right to shrug your shoulders and say <fx scouse accent> 'the ******'s dead' after all?


So had he been 'disappeared' as an Estonian citizen, that would be all right with you?
 
Here_to_learn said:
Why don't you provide a source for your "interviews"?

That is taken from the "Group of experts" site at https://sok.riksarkivet.se/estonia?...1DEA-CA82-4A9B-8905-29E2B14D755F&tab=post#tab

And we can see that it's not interviews by JAIC, or by the police.



and



So it's clear for all to see that what is quoted by you is from German Group of Experts, and not what they said to the police or JAIC. It's also not in the original language, but rather translated, another reason why this does not support your claim.
Click to expand...

That is because when survivors asked to see their original statements to the police, taken whilst they were in hospital, they were denied it, and told they were classified.


In the latest Kurm expedition Sept 2021, he planned to interview survivors who claimed to have been disregarded by the JAIC.
 
Vixen said:
AIUI the standard of glass on these roro sea ferries was that it had to withstand a windspeed of 41 m/s.
Click to expand...

First, please cite a reference for that.

Second, now tell us how a windspeed of 41 m/s compares with a heavy sea hitting the windows instead. Do you even know how to start comparing the energy in air versus water, not to mention allow for the fact that one is a compressible gas and the other a much heavier uncompressible liquid?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom