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Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part V

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Vixen said:
The topic of the conversation was Captain_Swoop posting a video of a ferry having its window smashed in Hamburg by a giant wave. I pointed out that it was unlikely to happen with the new Uberboats operating on the Thames because of the newness and having been on it. It was like being in a soundproofed shell with screaming kids and a horrible experience all round. Not at all like the previous ones where you could sit out on the deck. In addition, because they are very low down in the water, I can guarantee the windows are reinforced and would not be so easily smashable.
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And your understanding of the windows on those new Thames passenger boats has...... what to do with the strength (or otherwise) of the upper-decks windows on the Estonia?
 
Vixen said:
The boat was listing heavily, remember? It was listing to starboard and to the stern. In other words, water would be weighing it down in one corner, according to the JAIC scenario. The more the stern is weighed down, the more the lift to the bow.
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By the time it was listing to starboard and down by the stern it was already well flooded.

How does the stern sinking lift the bow out of the water?
Flooding in the machinery spaces and stern compartments would make them sit lower in the water, the ship wasn't on a pivot.
 
Vixen said:
Having exited at the funnel, how did Treu manage to get himself up to the port side, now horizontal - where the escaping passengers had gathered...unless he left the vessel a lot earlier than he claimed.
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How did the passengers gather there id the engineer couldn't?
 
Vixen said:
I stand corrected. It is not just two passengers. It is three. Out of 79 rescued.

The police statements are classified and cannot be accessed, unless already released to the public domain by whomever.
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Well, there are at least 6 listed on the page of links.
 
Vixen said:
In this age of modern technology it is more and more the case. I recall using log tables at school and know people who even used slide rules and can use them still today. Ask a teenager today to use a slide rule and they'll look at you funny. Now the days of quill pens, abacuses, and chunky calculators are over. There is software that'll do nigh on anything. Hence the more developed VINNOVA study of 2008 that is likely more accurate that the JAIC. The fact it had to keep modelling until it found a fit indicates they were working backwards to shoe horn the Herald of Free Enterprise story into the Estonia's.
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This is not your field. You don't know what you're talking about. This is what I do for a living.
 
Vixen said:
So that is six of them. What about the other 73?
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What about them?

Most will not have reported anything, their statements will have been about their escape. Most of them were first alerted by the ship taking on a violent list.

Where is your evidence for the testimony of those with contributions regarding the initiation of the events having their words changed?
 
Vixen said:
As I said, the crew were made to reapply for their own jobs after the event, according to Linde.
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How would that work, Vixen?

Were they reapplying for their own jobs working on a ship that now lay at the bottom of the Baltic Sea?

Or were they reapplying for the same jobs but on a sister ship - a ship which already had a full complement of crew?
 
LondonJohn said:
His name was removed, Vixen, because it very soon became clear that he had not survived, and that whoever had originally counted him as a survivor had been wrong*.
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I don't think his name was removed. It's far more likely that his name was never on the official list that was compiled at Turku.

His name was on other lists, compiled by other people based on whatever random information they got from anywhere.
 
Vixen said:
As I said, the crew were made to reapply for their own jobs after the event, according to Linde.
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Because their jobs didn't exist any longer. The ship had sunk

Crews of merchant ships are contracted to one ship for a number of voyages or set period of time.
If the ship sinks then the jobs have gone.
Most of the crew on a passenger ship are retail, domestic and service staff, not part of the crew that sail the ship.
 
Vixen said:
The passengers had no choice but to walk along the side of the boat. It was on its side...remember????
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You've entirely missed the point. Once again.

The point was: why would it have been uniquely difficult for the engineer Treu to make his way to the (now-horizontal) port beam of the ship, when plenty of other passengers and crew had managed to do precisely that?
 
Vixen said:
Er. Do you know what an angle of 70° looks like? The gradient that a person can walk up in comfort is not much more than 40° at most. When is the last time you managed to walk or crawl up a wall, as the deck now was?
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He was on an escape ladder, It's easier to go up a ladder at 70 degrees than it is vertical.
 
Vixen said:
The passengers had no choice but to walk along the side of the boat. It was on its side...remember????
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How many passenger were still aboard by the time the ship was on it's side?
Most never made it out of the ship at all, those that survived were out and in to the water by then.
Have you read the report?
 
Vixen said:
The topic of the conversation was Captain_Swoop posting a video of a ferry having its window smashed in Hamburg by a giant wave. I pointed out that it was unlikely to happen with the new Uberboats operating on the Thames because of the newness and having been on it. It was like being in a soundproofed shell with screaming kids and a horrible experience all round. Not at all like the previous ones where you could sit out on the deck. In addition, because they are very low down in the water, I can guarantee the windows are reinforced and would not be so easily smashable.
Click to expand...

Then your reference had nothing to do with Estonia? Does this mean you're happy to accept that its windows might have been smashed by waves?
 
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