• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part V

Status
Not open for further replies.
Captain_Swoop said:
No, the Wolf Packs were devised precisely because they didn't know where the convoys were. The pack would form an extended patrol line and any boat contacting a convoy would call the other boats in to attack as a pack.

Off the US east coast though the U-Boats had a good time sitting on the shipping lines until it was realised that sailing scheduled routes day after day in wartime was a bad idea.

I am thinking of the regular Italian and Japanese supply runs that were intercepted by submarines
Click to expand...

You know you;re right. This is what I get for trying to think before enough coffee.
 
Vixen said:
He was only going onto his watch at 1258 (if you believe Linde to be a reliable witness) which was due to begin 0100. We don't know for a fact the ship was speeding. That is just a supposition by the JAIC as they didn't retrieve the navigation systems.
Click to expand...

We know when the ship sailed and we know where it was.

As he is the captain he is always 'on watch' he is entirely responsible for the safety of the ship. He is entirely responsible for the way the ship was being run.
That's what being a captain entails.
 
Vixen said:
Alternative scenario:

Chief of Military, Svensson: Er, Prime Minster, something terrible has happened.

Prime Minister: What now?

Svensson: Unfortunately, the KSI, who don't tell me anything, now tell me they had a consignment for the USA on that ferry -

PM: So what? Why are you telling me?

S: - Not just the US but ahem, the CIA, who ordered some former Soviet space technology and arms gear -

PM: <face palm> Don't tell me -

S: Yes, the Kremlin seems to have found out about it -

PM: We must make amends immediately, call a press conference, bring up the victims and give them a decent burial -

S: Sir, you are not understanding. POTUS Bill Clinton is demanding we classify it.

PM: Classify it? How? What are we going to tell the people?

S: Clinton says it is for the protection and safety of the West and his reputation as a Middle East Peace maker. Can't upset the Russians after getting them out of the Baltic countries -

PM: Oh dear. What shall I tell the press?

S: Might I suggest you say it was an accident of nature, Sir? An engineer says he saw water coming through the car ramp.

PM: Yes! That's it! Wheel him out for the TV cameras. It is another sad Herald of Free Enterprise accident.
Click to expand...
Absolutely - that type of scenario is exactly what a conspiracy theorist comes up with. It involves multiple people conspiring and lying to the public, and has no facts to support it.

That can be compared with the facts that I posted.
 
Vixen said:
Think about it. Smuggling from Estonia, especially after Paldiski was decommissioned and the FSU army had to move out, was rife and di happen. So, imagine you are a smuggler and your consignment is worth €'000's, and word comes through, the cops are on to you. Opening the bow doors to get rid of a consignment will suddenly seem far more attractive than 12 years in a grim prison.
Click to expand...

So you turn green and transform into the Incredible Hulk, and push the ramp open, tearing the ramp and visor locks right out of their lugs as you do so. Is that what you think happened? Or is that obviously too stupid for words?

"Think about it".
 
Vixen said:
It means the JAIC just cobbled together something that sounds vaguely plausible but didn't actually test its hypothesis. Well, of course, it knew all along it was just a story.
Click to expand...

What is your evidence for this?

How do we know your professor didn't 'just cobbled together something that sounds vaguely plausible' for his paymasters?

There are extensive supporting documents that go with the report.
They are summarised in Chapter 12 'Overview Of Separate Investigations' and Chapter 15 'Strength Evaluation Of The Visor And Ramp Attachments'

I suggest you read them.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
I'm not pretending to be a better sailor than the captain. The point is the ship was pushed too hard and came to grief, and your repeated insistence that his contract gave him no choice seems to be something you just pulled from your fundament.
Click to expand...

Whoa! I didn't say Andresson's contract 'gave him no choice', but the fact is he wasn't being paid the USD equivalent of $3,000 pcm without all kinds of perfomance measures thrown in.
 
MarkCorrigan said:
You know you;re right. This is what I get for trying to think before enough coffee.
Click to expand...

Sacrilege! You cannot do that in this thread! Have you not realized by now? You have to fight like the dickens in support of your original incorrect statement against all comers, and ignore all countering evidence that may be presented. Your only way out is to make another unconnected and equally incorrect claim and hope that posters head off to discuss that instead.
 
Vixen said:
Erm, it was using the Diana II bolt as an example, the Estonia one having been thrown back onto the sea bed by Stenstrom.
Click to expand...

Do you just make it up as you go along?

No it was not using the 'Diana II' bolt as an example. The mechanism was recovered and examined, the broken lugs etc were taken for further examination. The bolt itself was examined and measured and found to be undamaged. The mechanism connected to the bolt was still in the closed position.
I just posted quotes from the report that tell us this. There are other sections that go in to more detail on the condition of the parts. Why don't you read them?
 
Vixen said:
Alternative scenario:

Chief of Military, Svensson: Er, Prime Minster, something terrible has happened.

Prime Minister: What now?

Svensson: Unfortunately, the KSI, who don't tell me anything, now tell me they had a consignment for the USA on that ferry -

PM: So what? Why are you telling me?

S: - Not just the US but ahem, the CIA, who ordered some former Soviet space technology and arms gear -

PM: <face palm> Don't tell me -

S: Yes, the Kremlin seems to have found out about it -

PM: We must make amends immediately, call a press conference, bring up the victims and give them a decent burial -

S: Sir, you are not understanding. POTUS Bill Clinton is demanding we classify it.

PM: Classify it? How? What are we going to tell the people?

S: Clinton says it is for the protection and safety of the West and his reputation as a Middle East Peace maker. Can't upset the Russians after getting them out of the Baltic countries -

PM: Oh dear. What shall I tell the press?

S: Might I suggest you say it was an accident of nature, Sir? An engineer says he saw water coming through the car ramp.

PM: Yes! That's it! Wheel him out for the TV cameras. It is another sad Herald of Free Enterprise accident.
Click to expand...
Well done, this is certifiable. Absolutely grade A nutter butters.
 
Vixen said:
... thrown back onto the sea bed by Stenstrom.
Click to expand...

There it is again: The tortured form of words "thrown back onto the sea bed" instead of "thrown back into the sea" because Vixen won't give an inch and resolutely refuses to accept that the bolt was retrieved and inspected on the surface, despite the description of that happening. It's hilarious, but rather sad.
 
Vixen said:
Whoa! I didn't say Andresson's contract 'gave him no choice', but the fact is he wasn't being paid the USD equivalent of $3,000 pcm without all kinds of perfomance measures thrown in.
Click to expand...

But his first duty was to the safety of the ship. If he disregarded that and plowed on to meet his 'performance measures' he was not a competent man to be captain of a ship.
 
Vixen said:
Whoa! I didn't say Andresson's contract 'gave him no choice', but the fact is he wasn't being paid the USD equivalent of $3,000 pcm without all kinds of perfomance measures thrown in.
Click to expand...

Bet he did not earn any performance bonuses on that last trip in spite of his efforts to stay on schedule at all costs.
 
Vixen said:
Whoa! I didn't say Andresson's contract 'gave him no choice', but the fact is he wasn't being paid the USD equivalent of $3,000 pcm without all kinds of perfomance measures thrown in.
Click to expand...

You said it was in his contract. You insisted it was in his contract. So he had a choice: Drive the ship on through the heavy seas or they'd find someone else to do his $3,000/month job. Nice.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom