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Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part V

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Vixen said:
Surely a person such as yourself has access to a library from which you can order practically any publication in the world...?
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And I could say the same for you, who claims to be a skilled researcher and historian. The question, however, was why you keep lying about your sources? Will you please address that?
 
Vixen said:
They look like the original lab reports to me...
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You said you believed they were unabridged. Regardless of whether you understand the material, how would you be able to tell whether a secondary source has abridged the original if you didn't have access to the original? It's a simple question.

...lots of technical stuff a layman wouldn't understand. For example, X-Ray diffraction diagrams.
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Agreed, you're not qualified to interpret the reports. Neither, I daresay, is Sven Anér. That's why I'm asking for the original lab reports so that I can interpret them. Are you able to provide them? Do you know of anyone who can?
 
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Hello again, Vixen.

Glad you're feeling better.

Now, if this:

Vixen said:
At least my posts are sourced, cited and properly referenced, even if people don't like them. (cf. James Meek.)
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source
and this:

Vixen said:
I never make anything up. All of my comments are sourced, unless I state 'IMV'.
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are true, how do you explain this:

Vixen said:
The Third Reich nazis deliberately and wickedly targetted the Lusitania. Even had she been half an hour late, the U-Boat would still have been skulking in waiting.
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?
 
Vixen said:
You will concede that Carl Bildt did urge within hours of the accident that all bow visors of all ferries should be inspected...?
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Oh, we are back to that subject again.

This is a post from when you brought it up last time, and what the source you pointed to really said:

Here_to_learn said:
Vixen said:
analysgruppen, SOU 1998:132 Örn commission report p 28 -30

https://www.riksdagen.se/sv/dokumen...ga-utredningar/sou-1998-132-d1_GMB3132d1/html

Bildt based his theory on the testimony of those two Estonian athletes who said they climbed down the car ramp.
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Right, let's see what your source really say:

Page 28 is about "the Governments work during the afternoon and evening of sep 28th"

It starts off with the information that right efter 12 noon, Carl Bildt takes a flight to Turku. On the flight Bildt gets briefed on experiences from the Jan Heweliusz accident, specifically with regards to expected reactions from family members.

It is also mentioned that during the flight TT (A Swedish news agency) had a flash that "a crew from M/S Estonia claims having seen the bow port open"

On Page 29 we learn that that media is waiting at the Turku airport, where Bildt explains that an Accident Investigation will take place, and that "Statens haverikommision" is the Swedish government agency that will take part. He makes a point to describe that is important to find out what happened, so be able to avoid a something like this happening again.

After that the three PMs meet and get briefed, and then had a private discussion to decide on responsibilities.

After that the PMs met with survivors at the hospital. Bildt meets with three Swedish passengers, while Mart Laar meets with three Estonian crew that describes that a wave had lifted the bow visor from below.

After this there was a press conference, and the report focus on the "recovery" at this stage.

Finally on page 29, continuing on to P30 is the following text:

Statsminister Carl Bildt vill ha en undersökning av passagerarfärjors konstruktion

Från flygplatsen inför hemresan ringer statsminister Carl Bildt upp Mats Odell. Statsministern vill att det ska under- sökas om andra passagerarfärjor i drift är konstruerade på samma sätt som Estonia. Uppgifterna från de överlevande besättningsmännen, om att bogporten ”lyfts underifrån” kan tyda på ett konstruktionsfel. Kommunikations- ministern får i uppgift att kontakta Sjöfartsverket. Därefter ringer statsminister Carl Bildt till Hans Laidwa på rederiet och informerar om denna åtgärd.
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My translation:

"Prime Minister Carl Bildt wants an investigation into the construction of passenger ferries

From the airport before the return journey, Prime Minister Carl Bildt calls Mats Odell. The Prime Minister wants it to be investigated whether other passenger ferries in operation are designed in the same way as Estonia. The information from the surviving crew members, that the bow gate is "lifted from below" may indicate a design defect. The Minister of Transportation is instructed to contact the Swedish Maritime Administration. Then Prime Minister Carl Bildt calls Hans Laidwa at the shipping company and informs about this measure."

The rest of p30 is about recovery of bodies and of the wreck, as well as discussion on the legal aspect.

No press release
No Bildt announcing the cause of the accident
No Bildt declaring the cause of the accident
...
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Note - I've corrected my own quote above, Odell was the minister of "transportation" and nothing else.
 
Vixen said:
I can't find the reference at the moment but Andresson was under contract with his employers Estline to ensure punctuality.
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A Captain's first duty is always to ensure the safety of his ship.
Any matters of punctuality are secondary to this duty
 
Vixen said:
The Third Reich nazis deliberately and wickedly targetted the Lusitania. Even had she been half an hour late, the U-Boat would still have been skulking in waiting.

The Estonia was hardly in that type of danger. In fact, one could say that her demise at Swedish midnight and at the halfway point of her journey was all carefully planned.
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If, as you claim, the captain was under obligation to disregard the safety of his ship to meet a deadline set by his employer , then yes, the demise of the ship was carefully planned.
 
Vixen said:
The Third Reich nazis deliberately and wickedly targetted the Lusitania. Even had she been half an hour late, the U-Boat would still have been skulking in waiting.

The Estonia was hardly in that type of danger. In fact, one could say that her demise at Swedish midnight and at the halfway point of her journey was all carefully planned.
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If, as you claim, the captain was under obligation to disregard the safety of his ship to meet a deadline set by his employer , then yes, the demise of the ship was carefully planned.

What do the Third Reich and the Nazis have to do with the Lusitania?
 
GlennB said:
Vixen said:
The Third Reich nazis deliberately and wickedly targetted the Lusitania.
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This is almost funny. I predict an edit of the original, with the word corr in the edit reason.
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Quoted for posterity. I had to read the post a couple of times. Are we on a different planet now? Or something? 1915 nazis running amok?

I am actually curious to see how vixen will attempt to reverse out of this intellectual debacle.
 
Vixen said:
The Third Reich nazis deliberately and wickedly targetted the Lusitania. Even had she been half an hour late, the U-Boat would still have been skulking in waiting.

The Estonia was hardly in that type of danger. In fact, one could say that her demise at Swedish midnight and at the halfway point of her journey was all carefully planned.
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My god, those Nazi's were diabolical! They went back in time by 20 years just to sink the Lusitania, those bastards!
 
Time travelling torpedoes, launched with military precision. It has the fingerprints of (whoever we're talking about now) all over it. Putin or someone.

If it were me, I'd probably say the doc gave me some whizzo painkillers. (Though joking aside I do hope you're recovered now, Vixen.)
 
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