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Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part V

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Captain_Swoop said:
That is not the lab report.
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Google translate gives the description as:
In Estonia exploded! all the crushing research documents are presented., Text entirely based on the official diver recordings, shows the unexplained orange-yellow package, the cross-taped package, the blown-up "petal" hole.
"... an explosion caused damage to the star visor of the bow visor ..."
"Extensive explosion damage to the starboard part of the loading ramp ..."
etc.
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Mojo said:
A lot of the language I’ve heard in scientific laboratories would trigger the autocensor.
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Back in my postdoc days national TV got interested in what we were doing and wanted to do a feature, including filming us going about our activities. My boss said she was happy to do interviews but that any footage taken around our department would be seriously unfit for broadcast.
 
Vixen said:
As I said I have the laboratory reports. They are several pages long. Some with dense tables.
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Pending actual production of said reports here, and considering your posting history here, I am quite confident in stating that, no, you do not in fact have the lab reports as you claim. In the amount of time you have spent complaining about how onerous it would be to reproduce them here you could easily have reproduced them here.
 
Vixen said:
That was EFD GlennB linked to. Nothing to do with Heiwa. It is run by the German Group of Experts. Has been linked to lots of times.
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Agreed. And you are still trying to hide your source. Which signifies to us that you probably don't have actual hardcopy, and it's probably one of the sources that you know your critics won't accept as reliable. In any case, you can allay those suspicions by revealing the source.
 
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Vixen said:
Why ask me for the hard copy laboratory reports if they are freely available on line to anybody?
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Are they freely available to anyone online? I've been unable to locate them. If you have a link, please post it.

You have the same access to resources as myself.
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Undoubtedly, but it doesn't seem that you know whether or not they are also available online. You have hardcopies, so you personally aren't relying upon online versions. Therefore it's unclear whether you know if online versions exist. Obviously we can order our own hardcopies from the same place you got yours, except that you refuse to tell us what that source is. That's suspicious.

You're deliberately making it difficult for us to verify the full, unedited contents of the laboratory reports upon which Braidwood relied to form his opinion.
 
Vixen said:
As I said I have the laboratory reports.
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You have said this, but because you won't tell us where you got them and refuse to have them scanned, we don't believe you. You have a long-documented history of hiding your sources, usually because you know that we will discover that they are unreliable. It therefore seems likely that you don't have actual hardcopies and that your online sources are either incomplete, unreliable, or both.
 
Vixen said:
Good catch/ I hadn't seen that video. However, do you really think Lehtola took his Day One conclusions from what Sillaste and the other guy (it is not Kadak) said on MTV Uutiset (News) as most people would watch YLE1 or 2. (MTV is full of commercial breaks.) Of course, they would all report similar news as each other.
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What I'm saying that already on the day of accident there was a TV interview of Sillaste telling that the water got in through the bow. A fact that you should have known after following the case closely for over 20 years.

And Lehtola did not conclude on day one that that Estonia was sunk because of failure of the front gate.

Prove me wrong.

Show me where Lehtola said that on Day One. In those words, I mean, or at least in words that a person who is not predisposed on seeing hidden conspiracy theories in everything they see will understand with that meaning.
And I mean a statement made by Lehtola, not by someone else, and on Day One, not later.

You can't do that.

Because the commission said that definitely only after the robot camera had taken pictures that showed that the visor was missing and the gate was partly open.
 
Vixen said:
I do have the source but it'll have to wait until I am feeling better.
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Fair enough, but you will be questioned upon it when you return. Kindly don't forget, or evade the questioning.

A contract requiring public transport operators to run on time does not equate to endangering life.
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Any provision of a contract that entails accepting greater risk in order to maintain production parameters obviously equates to endangering life. If the maintenance of schedule is paramount and enshrined in contractual obligation, such a contract could be considered unconscionable.

However, there is considerable informal pressure to maintain production parameters, and this is evident in the shipping industry. In his book Normal Accidents, Charles Perrow points out that there have been several significant advances in technology designed to improve the safety of shipping. However the accident rate has remained flat; it has not decreased. He finds that this is because shipping companies use the additional safety margins to increase production. This understanding has had profound effects in the engineering industry, where we discover that there is a normalization of risk that can lead to complacency.

It's plausible to believe that the captain of MS Estonia felt pressure to maintain his schedule. But to say that he was contractually obligated to do so smells very fishy.

Did you think a passenger ferry could just turn up at any old time?
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If the shipping company owns or operates the docking facilities, it literally doesn't matter when the ship arrives.
 
JayUtah said:
Fair enough, but you will be questioned upon it when you return. Kindly don't forget, or evade the questioning.



Any provision of a contract that entails accepting greater risk in order to maintain production parameters obviously equates to endangering life. If the maintenance of schedule is paramount and enshrined in contractual obligation, such a contract could be considered unconscionable.

However, there is considerable informal pressure to maintain production parameters, and this is evident in the shipping industry. In his book Normal Accidents, Charles Perrow points out that there have been several significant advances in technology designed to improve the safety of shipping. However the accident rate has remained flat; it has not decreased. He finds that this is because shipping companies use the additional safety margins to increase production. This understanding has had profound effects in the engineering industry, where we discover that there is a normalization of risk that can lead to complacency.

It's plausible to believe that the captain of MS Estonia felt pressure to maintain his schedule. But to say that he was contractually obligated to do so smells very fishy.



If the shipping company owns or operates the docking facilities, it literally doesn't matter when the ship arrives.
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It often depends on the state of the tide anyway.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
I wonder if that book is the 'hardcopy'
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Probably. We have seen that Vixen likes to softball the revelation of her source. But as I said, I'm not interested in a book that purports to reproduce the reports -- especially a book arguing in favor of a conspiracy theory. I'm looking for the full reports in an unedited, unglossed, uninterpreted form. I will understand, of course, if such cannot be had. But I'm not prepared to accept information uncritically from biased secondary sources.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
It often depends on the state of the tide anyway.
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Yes, although not in the case of M/S Estonia. Tide in the Baltics is a non-issue, maybe a centimeter or two between high and low tide.

But M/S Estonia had it's own berth in Stockholm, and was going to sit there all day, since the next scheduled departure was in the later afternoon.

So any hurry was for following the time table and delivering the passengers one time.
 
Vixen said:
As I said I have the laboratory reports. They are several pages long. Some with dense tables.
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Where did you get the hard copy of the reports? You've been asked several times and you haven't answered.

For some reason when you're asked for sources you don't answer, and it takes several times being asked before you either admit you don't have a source and you claim you can't remember where you got the supposed information from, or you provide links to some webpage which isn't the source that people are actually asking for.

This despite your claim that your factual information is sourced, cited and properly references and that all your posts which don't have a 'IMV' disclaimed are properly sourced.
 
Vixen said:
Incidentally, you can find the full laboratory reports here, in English, from Brandenburg, Claustahl Zellerfeld (Germany) and South West Laboratories, USA.


Sven Anér, Book Depository

It seems currently unavailable but try Adebooks or Adlibris.
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Does that book contain the entire unedited laboratory reports, complete with 'dense tables', the very same report which you claim to have a hard copy of? Because that's what you're being asked for.
 
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