Liberalism versus conservatism in skepticism

And likewise. I believe, however, that you have misunderstood the criticism in the OP. It is not that you are on the loony left, but rather that you are on the left but are less likely to challenge the loony left than conservatives on this board are likely to challenge the loony right. Basically, Mycroft is saying that you give demon less grief than I give hammegk. ;) I take no position for purposes of this thread -- I just wanted to clear up the opening post.
 
manny said:
And likewise. I believe, however, that you have misunderstood the criticism in the OP. It is not that you are on the loony left, but rather that you are on the left but are less likely to challenge the loony left than conservatives on this board are likely to challenge the loony right. Basically, Mycroft is saying that you give demon less grief than I give hammegk. ;) I take no position for purposes of this thread -- I just wanted to clear up the opening post.
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Possibly. I guess you would have to give me specific examples and I could then tell you whether or not I disagree---or have disagreed---with them, either here or elsewhere.

But I will concede---readily---that right now I am harder on the Right in general for the simple reason that I regard the current One Party Rule as one of the more dangerous developments in recent years. If the Left were to control all 3 branches of federal government (and most governorships) you can bet I'd be all over them just as badly.

If I wanted to be petty myself, I would say it is because I am a skeptic, not a party ideolog like some others here. Good thing I am better than that. ;)
 
Mycroft said:
Split 'cause I really think it's a different discussion. Also, a fun discussion.



I think on this board the lunatic left is better represented than the lunatic right.

I think the reason for this is simply that the staunch conservatives such as Manny, BPSCG, Jocko and others are a lot more likely to eviscerate the “Jesus is a Republican” conservative woo woo than the local liberals such as Orwell, Kevin Lowe, Mark or Gnome are likely to do the same to a “America is always wrong” Cindy Sheehan worshiping liberal woo woo.





Pin pulled, grenade thrown, walking slowly away...
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The thing is, though (and this was my point) I think the "Jesus is Republican" conservative is just as much a strawman as the "America is always wrong" liberal. Both are a stereotype made up by the one side to provide an easy target for their side. Not that such people don't exist at all, I am sure they do, but for the most part I don't think that they represent the majority of either side. That doesn't stop either side from pretending they do, though.
 
Nyarlathotep said:
The thing is, though (and this was my point) I think the "Jesus is Republican" conservative is just as much a strawman as the "America is always wrong" liberal. Both are a stereotype made up by the one side to provide an easy target for their side. Not that such people don't exist at all, I am sure they do, but for the most part I don't think that they represent the majority of either side. That doesn't stop either side from pretending they do, though.
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A local pastor here actually used the words, "Jesus would vote for Republicans."
 
There are more than enough neo-conservatives (and "My Israel/ethnocultural group, right or wrong" people, which are really a subset of neo-conservatism) on this board to cant it far towards the right. The so-called "liberals" Mycroft so despises seem to be to be perfectly reasonable thinkers, most of the time. I can't say the same for Skeptic, or Mycroft, or zenith-nadir.
 
manny said:
Orwell, Kevin Lowe, Mark and Gnome believe that George Bush is a bigger terrorist than Osama bin Laden? That the foreign jihadists are freedom fighters comparable to the Minutemen of the American Revolution? That the Iraq War was the fault of the Jews? I can't say for Orwell, since he's a worthless coward and sock puppet who is on perma-ignore, but I don't think those views can fairly be ascribed to any of the other posters mentioned and I think you are being unfair for saying so.
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First, I don't understand how your comments about me related to the quote you provided. Please be specific.

Second, I would like to see the quotes supporting your other claim.

Thanks
 
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manny said:
And likewise. I believe, however, that you have misunderstood the criticism in the OP. It is not that you are on the loony left, but rather that you are on the left but are less likely to challenge the loony left than conservatives on this board are likely to challenge the loony right. Basically, Mycroft is saying that you give demon less grief than I give hammegk. ;) I take no position for purposes of this thread -- I just wanted to clear up the opening post.
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This I agree with and in my defense, I don't have the time to "attack" everyone I disagree with. I am left of center and will "question" those on the right. While I may disagree with some whacky things said by those on "my side of center". I'm confident their claims will be "attacked" and my assistance isn't needed. That doesn't mean, I am defending them. That would be a strawman, which is exactly what the OP is.
 
Nyarlathotep said:
The thing is, though (and this was my point) I think the "Jesus is Republican" conservative is just as much a strawman as the "America is always wrong" liberal. Both are a stereotype made up by the one side to provide an easy target for their side. Not that such people don't exist at all, I am sure they do, but for the most part I don't think that they represent the majority of either side. That doesn't stop either side from pretending they do, though.
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$.02: I personally know far more people who resemble the former than the latter, and the cumulative leaning of the people I come in contact with is "Left."
 
Snide said:
$.02: I personally know far more people who resemble the former than the latter, and the cumulative leaning of the people I come in contact with is "Left."
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Well, you know, you do have a point. While I have not often heard the "Jesus would vote Republican" comment, I have heard it. On the other hand, I have never heard anyone seriously say "America is always wrong."
 
But Mark and Snide, how much of what you notice do you think comes simply from the fact that we (I am talking the 'all of humanity', not just 'the three of us' we here) tend to have a better knowledge and understanding of people whose views match our own, if only because that is who we tend to become close enough friends with to actually KNOW their views. While we tend to know 'the other side' mostly through their most extreme (thus most visible) examples.
 
Nyarlathotep said:
But Mark and Snide, how much of what you notice do you think comes simply from the fact that we (I am talking the 'all of humanity', not just 'the three of us' we here) tend to have a better knowledge and understanding of people whose views match our own, if only because that is who we tend to become close enough friends with to actually KNOW their views. While we tend to know 'the other side' mostly through their most extreme (thus most visible) examples.
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Well, I admittedly lean to the Left and have never heard anyone say "America is always wrong." Neither have I hear anyone quoted as as saying that. To be sure, I hear the Right claim the Left use that phrase...but I have never seen or heard a direct quote.

But I have heard with my own ears the "Jesus would vote Republican" comment.

Neverthless, I am not suggesting either is any sort of mainstream viewpoint. Just that the "Jesus" one is more common.
 
Nyarlathotep said:
But Mark and Snide, how much of what you notice do you think comes simply from the fact that we (I am talking the 'all of humanity', not just 'the three of us' we here) tend to have a better knowledge and understanding of people whose views match our own, if only because that is who we tend to become close enough friends with to actually KNOW their views. While we tend to know 'the other side' mostly through their most extreme (thus most visible) examples.
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Since you don't know me from Adam, it's a fair question. But I engage in discourse with all sides quite often, I read both Franken and O'Reilly, I watch all news/talk/punditry with a skeptical eye, etc. I even get noticeably frustrated when my wife complains about corporations as if they are all inherently evil (even while she's on her eight-weeks paid maternity leave).

Further, my circle of friends is right-leaning, including a one-issue "God" voter who has no idea I'm into skepticism.:) It's my family that tips the scale the other way...
 
manny said:
I can't say for Orwell, since he's a worthless coward and sock puppet who is on perma-ignore, but I don't think those views can fairly be ascribed to any of the other posters mentioned and I think you are being unfair for saying so.
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Uh, ok, I can understand why you would put me on perma-ignore, but why the "worthless coward" bit?
 
Mark said:
Well, I admittedly lean to the Left and have never heard anyone say "America is always wrong." Neither have I hear anyone quoted as as saying that. To be sure, I hear the Right claim the Left use that phrase...but I have never seen or heard a direct quote.

But I have heard with my own ears the "Jesus would vote Republican" comment.

Neverthless, I am not suggesting either is any sort of mainstream viewpoint. Just that the "Jesus" one is more common.
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Well, I'm not so sure. I have never heard anyone on the left say "America is always wrong" in so many words but there exist people whose words and deeds show that they take that attitude, i.e. the Ward Churchills of the world. Nonetheless, finding people that actually do fit a stereotype does not prove the stereotype true. Just because I can find a drunken Indian or a limp wristed gay guy doesn't prove anything one way or the other about Indians or gay guys in general. Likewise with liberals and conservatives.
 
Mycroft said:
I think on this board the lunatic left is better represented than the lunatic right.

I think the reason for this is simply that the staunch conservatives such as Manny, BPSCG, Jocko and others are a lot more likely to eviscerate the “Jesus is a Republican” conservative woo woo than the local liberals such as Orwell, Kevin Lowe, Mark or Gnome are likely to do the same to a “America is always wrong” Cindy Sheehan worshiping liberal woo woo.
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I see a few problems with these characterizations. First, you've defined conservative woo as the religious right, which seems to preclude the possibility that there other types of conservative woo thinking. Second, this is a skeptics board; it's hardly suprising that the conservatives who come here will take the bible-thumpers to task, since it is a shared trait among skeptics regardless of political persuasion. The liberals on this board would probably be more than happy to eviscerate the "Jesus is a peace-loving hippie Democrat" liberal, but they are hard to find. Third, since you've defined the lunatic left as the "America is always wrong" crowd, you'd be better off defining the lunatic right as the "America is always right" crowd.
 
Mycroft said:
I think on this board the lunatic left is better represented than the lunatic right.

I think the reason for this is simply that the staunch conservatives such as Manny, BPSCG, Jocko and others are a lot more likely to eviscerate the “Jesus is a Republican” conservative woo woo than the local liberals such as Orwell, Kevin Lowe, Mark or Gnome are likely to do the same to a “America is always wrong” Cindy Sheehan worshiping liberal woo woo.
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Your whole premise is based on a strawman.
 
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