Liberalism versus conservatism in skepticism

[Orwell]

Since there are very few leftie new agers and "post modernists" on this board, Mycroft is obviously not aware of what I think of the real "lunatic left". I have had some epic spats in left-wing boards with religious and "pseudo-intellectual" woowoos...

 

[Manny]

First, I don't understand how your comments about me related to the quote you provided. Please be specific.

You described the beliefs of the liberal posters mentioned as being similar to the pro-terrorist, America-hating Cindy Sheehan. I disagree with your characterization. Their beliefs are not similar beyond that all oppose the Iraq war. Ms. Sheehan's opinions about the Iraq war go well beyond opposing it and into supporting our enemies and I found it completely unfair to associate those posters with her reprehensible opinions. None of those people, in my opinion, would share a stage with an actual convicted terrorist like Ms. Sheehan has done on several occasions.

Second, I would like to see the quotes supporting your other claim.

Starting with post 174, "Orwell" is acutally Ex Lion Tamer, who ran off in a huff only to return under another name to avoid getting grief. The accounts were subsequently merged without announcement in the Public Announcements section.

 

[DavidJames]

You described the beliefs of the liberal posters mentioned as being similar to the pro-terrorist, America-hating Cindy Sheehan. I disagree with your characterization. Their beliefs are not similar beyond that all oppose the Iraq war.

Thank you and oppostion to the war was my intention. I apologize to those involved if you felt I meant more then that.

Ms. Sheehan's opinions about the Iraq war go well beyond opposing it and into supporting our enemies and I found it completely unfair to associate those posters with her reprehensible opinions. None of those people, in my opinion, would share a stage with an actual convicted terrorist like Ms. Sheehan has done on several occasions.

How about Rummy, he shared a stage with Saddam?


Thanks for the links, I quickly looked (the link was to the 3rd page of many) since you must have looked to validate your claim, why didn't you post a direct link, with quotes. hmmmm.

You still owe me links to the others.

 

[Manny]

Thank you and oppostion to the war was my intention. I apologize to those involved if you felt I meant more then that.

Then I, in turn, apologize for reading more than that into your comment.

How about Rummy, he shared a stage with Saddam?

The available evidence indicates that Secretary Rumsfeld has had a change of heart.

You still owe me links to the others.

I'm unclear as to what you're looking forward to here. I established that he is a sock puppet, and the circumstances under which his prior persona left the boards. What's left?

 

[DavidJames]

Then I, in turn, apologize for reading more than that into your comment.

Accepted

The available evidence indicates that Secretary Rumsfeld has had a change of heart.

yes, I would agree. Your interpretation of the evidence is spot on

I'm unclear as to what you're looking forward to here. I established that he is a sock puppet, and the circumstances under which his prior persona left the boards. What's left?

this...

Orwell, Kevin Lowe, Mark and Gnome believe that George Bush is a bigger terrorist than Osama bin Laden? That the foreign jihadists are freedom fighters comparable to the Minutemen of the American Revolution? That the Iraq War was the fault of the Jews?

 

[gnome]

I think the reason for this is simply that the staunch conservatives such as Manny, BPSCG, Jocko and others are a lot more likely to eviscerate the “Jesus is a Republican” conservative woo woo than the local liberals such as Orwell, Kevin Lowe, Mark or Gnome are likely to do the same to a “America is always wrong” Cindy Sheehan worshiping liberal woo woo.

Hey, I made the list of JREF liberals!

I'm disappointed though, I think it is as important to rein in the extreme left as it is to do so to the extreme right, and I thought I made a habit of pointing out when a "leftist" comment goes too far in my opinion... oh well, if it's not noticed, maybe I can do better in the future.

 

[Manny]

"(George Bush) is ten times the terrorist Osama ever was."

"...freedom fighters from other countries are going in, and they have created more terrorism by going to an Islamic country, devastating the country, and killing innocent people in that country. The terrorism is growing and people who never thought of being car bombers or suicide bombers are now doing it because they want the United States of America out of their country."

"Yes, (her son) was killed for lies and for a PNAC Neo-Con agenda to benefit Israel. My son joined the army to protect America, not Israel."

 

[Orwell]

A sock puppet is someone who uses an additional username at the same time as he uses another username.

I never simultaneously posted under different usernames. I changed my name, that's all, to avoid embarrassment.

Multiple accounts (sock puppets) are not permitted on this forum, it says so in the forum rules. Had I been a sock puppet, I would have been kicked out.

The fact that some people take this little foible of mine so seriously indicates that they really should get a life...

 

[DavidJames]

"(George Bush) is ten times the terrorist Osama ever was."

"...freedom fighters from other countries are going in, and they have created more terrorism by going to an Islamic country, devastating the country, and killing innocent people in that country. The terrorism is growing and people who never thought of being car bombers or suicide bombers are now doing it because they want the United States of America out of their country."

"Yes, (her son) was killed for lies and for a PNAC Neo-Con agenda to benefit Israel. My son joined the army to protect America, not Israel."

I'm not sure if this is in response my request but the links are to opinion pieces which, unless I'm mistaken, aren't authored by "Orwell, Kevin Lowe, Mark and Gnome "

I will admit for the record, your honor, that some on the left offer opinions which I agree are outlandish. Rest assured, however, that without corroborating evidence, their opinions are their own and not necessarily those of everyone.

 

[Manny]

Oh! I think you may have misunderstood my initial post. I was not ascribing those opinions to Kevin Lowe, Mark or Gnome. I was ascribing them to Cindy Sheehan and contrasting those guys to her.

 

[DavidJames]

Oh! I think you may have misunderstood my initial post. I was not ascribing those opinions to Kevin Lowe, Mark or Gnome. I was ascribing them to Cindy Sheehan and contrasting those guys to her.

Got it, sorry for my confusion. Hence the problem when we paint with such broad brushes, we sometimes go outside the lines of skepticism.

 

[Mycroft]

What a patheic attempt at a thinly veiled ad hom attack on those you disagree with. So I am part of the "Lunatic Left" am I?

Your argument is severely undermined by 2 points:

A) That while some of your conservatives pals may not like the Religious Right, but they still vote for the Religious Right's candidates. As I imagine you do as well. So much for "skepticism" on the Right.

B) Strawman. I have never said anything in support of Cindy Sheehan's more absurd comments. And have certainly never said anything remotely like "America is always wrong." In fact, you owe me an apology, which I doubt you are polite enough to offer. Attacking the patriotism of your opponents is a cheesy, overused, right-wing tactic.

I found your post absurd and offensive.

I never said you were part of the "lunatic left." Quite the opposite, I identified you as being on the left (agree? Disagree?) who is unlikely to eviscerate the "lunatic left" .

See the difference?

 

[Mycroft]

…Cindy Sheehan is obviously NOT worshiped in eth same way that fundies worship jeebus…

I think in context it’s obvious when I said “worships” that I didn’t mean that in a literal sense, but rather as hyperbole to mean “pays her respect way beyond what she’s due.” By the same token, when I said "eviscerated" I didn't mean to literaly remove their viscera from their body either.

You will find almost as many "America, right or wrong" types here as you will find "blame America" types.

I often see people labeled as “America, right or wrong” types who I don’t agree are.

If you want an equivalent to that reality-impeded world view from the left, pick PoMo, or any of the related brands of intellectual dishonesty.The trouble is, you wouldn't be able to bash many posters here with attacks on post modernist "reasoning".

Except I have to understand it before I criticize it, and I haven’t accomplished that yet.

 

[Mycroft]

There are more than enough neo-conservatives (and "My Israel/ethnocultural group, right or wrong" people, which are really a subset of neo-conservatism) on this board to cant it far towards the right. The so-called "liberals" Mycroft so despises seem to be to be perfectly reasonable thinkers, most of the time. I can't say the same for Skeptic, or Mycroft, or zenith-nadir.

FYI, I consider myself more liberal than conservative.

 

[Darat]

Left does not mean liberal. Extreme left is no more liberal then extreme right.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

Left does not mean liberal. Extreme left is no more liberal then extreme right.

But in the US they are used pretty much interchangeably. Whether that is correct or not is a different question, but most of us in the US understand them as synonyms.

 

[Mycroft]

I was aware of that...I just thought it funny that a local pastor actually did say those words. I did not mean to imply his were mainstream thoughts.

I didn't choose that term at random, I grew up in a small country town and am quite familiar with people who think that way.

I don't believe most conservatives believe Jesus is on their side any more than I believe most liberals hate America, but there are certainly examples of both that are quite real.

 

[brodski]

Left does not mean liberal. Extreme left is no more liberal then extreme right.

Darat, give it up, this fight has been lost, you may as well try and enforce use of the word "crisps", or insist that it's better to drive on the left.

You may be factually correct, but the issue has already be settled.

 

[Mycroft]

Since there are very few leftie new agers and "post modernists" on this board, Mycroft is obviously not aware of what I think of the real "lunatic left". I have had some epic spats in left-wing boards with religious and "pseudo-intellectual" woowoos...

Okay, good point. There is some liberal woo that Skepticism does filter out too.

However I would argue that new age isn't exactly political and that post modernists couldn't put together a cogent argument anyway, so maybe they don't count.

 

[Art Vandelay]

Of course it matters. You used a religious example. I believe those conservatives you mention are not religious (based on reading this board), consequently, when they "eviscerate the “Jesus is a Republican”" it should not be considered surprising (because they do have that in common with them) any more then should they eviscerate Cindy Sheehan. A better example would be seeing if those conservatives eviscerate “Ann Coulter”.

So Mycroft says that the Loony Left is better represented than the Loony Right, because Loony Right ideas are attacked more than Loony Left ideas are. You reply that of course that is the case, because these Loony Right ideas aren't held by posters here, but the Loony Left positions are. Uhh... aren't you supporting Mycroft's position?

In one sense of the words "sceptics" cannot be "conservatives" because conservatism is about keeping things the same, because that is assumed to be what is best, and sceptics shouldn't be concerned about retaining the status-quo but about whether something is right or wrong.

Simply because one supports the status quo does not mean that one "assumes" that the status quo is best. It seems to me that you are starting from the position that the status quo is not best, therefore the only POSSIBLE reason someone might support is if they're being irrational. So you are the one not being skeptical. I could just as easily say:

In one sense of the words "sceptics" cannot be "liberals" because liberalism is about changing things, because that is assumed to be what is best, and sceptics shouldn't be concerned about changing the status-quo but about whether something is right or wrong.