Trans women are not women (Part 8)

[d4m10n]

30 seconds on google

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...tment-period-for-trans-women-may-be-too-short

Doesn't answer my question though, does it?

So far as I know, no scientific study has ever been designed (much less implemented) with the goal of discovering how many months of HRT would bring elite male performance averages down to elite female levels...

What you'd actually need is a long-term longitudinal study, measuring performance of elite athletes over an open-ended course of years.

(No offense to my fellow USAF veterans, but we generally weren't the greatest athletes in the USA.)

 

[Emily's Cat]

Doesn't answer my question though, does it?





What you'd actually need is a long-term longitudinal study, measuring performance of elite athletes over an open-ended course of years.

(No offense to my fellow USAF veterans, but we generally weren't the greatest athletes in the USA.)

You're assuming that there are continued changes over a long-term. I'm not sure that's a reasonable assumption. I'm under the impression that the physical changes from cross-sex hormones are pretty stable after just a couple of years.

 

[Ziggurat]

You're assuming that there are continued changes over a long-term. I'm not sure that's a reasonable assumption. I'm under the impression that the physical changes from cross-sex hormones are pretty stable after just a couple of years.

I wouldn't say he's assuming that. One possible answer to his question is "never".

 

[d4m10n]

You're assuming that there are continued changes over a long-term.

I'm assuming, for the sake of argument, that the mainstream (e.g. IOC) view isn't utter bollocks, and hoping to see whether anyone taking that view has an evidentiary basis for doing so.

One possible answer to his question is "never".

The most likely answer, IMO.

 

[shuttlt]

Presumably we can assume that any sport where height, or hip angle are of any significance aren't going to equalised by cross-sex hormones?

 

[shuttlt]

I've always found Noel Plum pretty good on these discussions. He does go on a bit.
https://youtu.be/EwFZBG_ts4k

 

[Ziggurat]

From the article, it sounds like these people were tested before and after treatment while still in the USAF. That's a major methodological problem. The USAF has a fitness test which you have to pass, but you don't get much benefit from doing better than what's required. And what's required of women is much less than what's required of men. So if you transition from a man to a woman, you might let your fitness slide because you don't need to remain as fit. So it's entirely possible that this study overestimates how much fitness transwomen lose from hormone therapy, if they wanted to remain as fit as possible. Which is somewhat related to your question about elite athletes, but it applies to anyone of any genetic predisposition (elite athletes are genetic freaks) who wanted to maximize fitness while transitioning.

 

[lionking]

I have posted this before. My job is to help people get apprenticeship jobs. Over the past year I’ve helped three people who were transitioning from female to male. Two had hormone replacement treatment and were growing decent beards. One very female bodied and aggressive person I’m certain was doing the transition, without any obvious hormone treatment, as a fashion statement.

Today I met a person who was nice and relaxed, an apprentice butcher (the others have been two apprentice hairdressers and one apprentice baker) who, when I asked the “what sex are you” question said “non binary, but put female”.

Interestingly I am yet to encounter a transwomen.

 

[Aber]

I'm assuming, for the sake of argument, that the mainstream (e.g. IOC) view isn't utter bollocks,

The IOC view is utter bollocks with no real scientific support.

We, therefore, conclude that the muscle mass advantage males
possess over females, and the performance implications thereof, are not removed by the currently studied durations (4months, 1, 2 and 3years) of testosterone suppression in transgender women


On the contrary, it appears that the net loss of lean mass and grip strength is not substantially decreased at year 2 or 3 of cross-hormone treatment (Table4), nor evident in cohorts after an average 8years after transition. This indicates that a plateau or a new steady state is reached within the first or second year of treatment,

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/346774077_Transgender_Women_in_the_Female_Category_of_Sport_Perspectives_on_Testosterone_Suppression_and_Performance_Advantage

 

[TurkeysGhost]

The culture war machine doesn't fuel itself I suppose:

A far-right podcaster working for The Daily Wire, Ben Shapiro‘s right-wing outlet, has been attempting to dupe dozens of trans people and doctors into participating in an anti-trans documentary under false pretenses, a prominent trans activist revealed this week.

Matt Walsh, who has an extensive history of overtly bigoted rhetoric predating his work for Shapiro’s burgeoning media empire, has become a leading anti-trans voice in the conservative movement as of late. The one-time shock jock’s cartoonishly hateful remarks about the LGBTQ community has only increased his public profile and garnered him right-wing media stardom, including frequent appearances on Fox News.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-daily-wires-matt-walsh-tried-to-dupe-trans-people-into-joining-his-anti-trans-documentary?source=articles&via=rss

Doing a journalism by trying to defraud people into participating in an anti-trans propaganda piece.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Texas GOP candidate Shelley Luther complains that students can’t make fun of transgender children

Shelley Luther, the hair salon owner who was catapulted into political stardom after being jailed for defying a pandemic lockdown order, put transgender kids in the crosshairs of her campaign for the Texas House over the weekend.

Appearing at a candidate forum in northeast Texas Saturday, Luther, a former school teacher, said transgender children make her uncomfortable, and she complained that their classmates weren’t allowed to make fun of them.

“I am not comfortable with the transgenders,” Luther told the audience of Republican voters. “The kids that they brought in my classroom, when they said that this kid is transgendering into a different sex, that I couldn’t have kids laugh at them … like, other kids got in trouble for having transgender kids in my class.”

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Texas-GOP-candidate-Shelley-Luther-complains-that-16842639.php

Wonder what else this lady cares about:

It’s not the first time Luther has gotten blowback over divisive rhetoric. In January she came under fire for tweeting that Chinese students should not be allowed to enroll in state universities. Though she deleted the tweet, that essentially remains the official position on her website, which says “we should not allow Chinese Nationals into our colleges where they can obtain classified information, steal technology, and essentially learn how to defeat the United States.”

Luther garnered national attention in May 2020 when she defied emergency orders to shut down her Dallas salon and was sentenced to a week in jail. She was released after about two days, but that was long enough to make her a hero for those fighting pandemic lockdowns.

Transhpobia and reactionary right politics, name a more iconic duo.

 

[Meadmaker]

Texas GOP candidate Shelley Luther complains that students can’t make fun of transgender children



https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Texas-GOP-candidate-Shelley-Luther-complains-that-16842639.php

Wonder what else this lady cares about:



Transhpobia and reactionary right politics, name a more iconic duo.

Anecdote.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Anecdote.

Somehow I think the attitudes of lawmakers matters more than mean tweets from nobodies, but sure, you're proving some important point.

Here's a non-anecdote for you:

Florida Senate committee passes "Don't Say Gay" bill that would bar LGBTQ discussions in schools

The Florida Senate Education Committee passed a controversial bill on Tuesday that would bar school districts from encouraging classroom discussion about sexual orientation or gender identity. The Parental Rights in Education bill, commonly referred to the "Don't Say Gay" bill by its critics, would apply to such topics in primary grade levels, as well as in cases where the discussions are deemed "not age-appropriate.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/florida-dont-say-gay-bill-lgbtq-schools/

Anti-queer censorship bill on its way to becoming Florida law.

 

[Meadmaker]

Somehow I think the attitudes of lawmakers matters more than mean tweets from nobodies, but sure, you're proving some important point.

I think being raped matters, but it's just an anecdote.

Here's a non-anecdote for you:



https://www.cbsnews.com/news/florida-dont-say-gay-bill-lgbtq-schools/

Anti-queer censorship bill on its way to becoming Florida law.

I must admit, the US is getting weird. Like, seriously weird.

We have legislation being passed that dictates what can and cannot be said in schools in the state. There's something about that that just sounds so seriously un-American.

But...I'm not sure the left or the right holds the moral high ground on the subject. Elements of both sides seem more than happy to ram their agenda down the throats of local teachers and school boards.

 

[The Atheist]

Oops, Adele is a transphobe for saying she's happy to be woman at a gender neutral event.

And it's utterly hilarious.

What Adele said: "I understand why the name of this award has changed but I really love being a woman and being a female artist. I do!"

How it's being described by trans activists: "Who'd have thought Adele was a transphobe and would use her platform to call for the destruction of the trans community. Especially the confused teenagers,"



You couldn't make this **** up, because it's true.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertai...neutral-award-win/IZQAANG4OEERVJDJXKC2NAXQPA/

 

[Meadmaker]

Oops, Adele is a transphobe for saying she's happy to be woman at a gender neutral event.

And it's utterly hilarious.

What Adele said: "I understand why the name of this award has changed but I really love being a woman and being a female artist. I do!"

How it's being described by trans activists: "Who'd have thought Adele was a transphobe and would use her platform to call for the destruction of the trans community. Especially the confused teenagers,"



You couldn't make this **** up, because it's true.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertai...neutral-award-win/IZQAANG4OEERVJDJXKC2NAXQPA/

You are only allowed to love being a woman if you have a penis.

 

[TheGoldcountry]

Wait, what?

She said she likes being a woman. Wouldn't a transwoman agree?

I'm seriously confused about the goals here. I'm not being glib. I don't understand what trans-rights advocates want, exactly. I'm becoming more and more convinced that they aren't at all sure. There certainly seem to be a lot of contradictory views.

 

[theprestige]

Wait, what?

She said she likes being a woman. Wouldn't a transwoman agree?

I'm seriously confused about the goals here. I'm not being glib. I don't understand what trans-rights advocates want, exactly. I'm becoming more and more convinced that they aren't at all sure. There certainly seem to be a lot of contradictory views.

We've been trying for four years and eight installments to get trans-activists to state what their goals are in clear, specific language.

 

[TheGoldcountry]

We've been trying for four years and eight installments to get trans-activists to state what their goals are in clear, specific language.

I've read most of it. It's like a flow chart where every path leads back to the top.

 

[d4m10n]

We've been trying for four years and eight installments to get trans-activists to state what their goals are in clear, specific language.

I think it's fair to say the main goal is for self-ID to supercede "assignment at birth" for all purposes, public and private.