OK. It just seems to me almost definitionally impossible to know. Somebody would have to be pretty blatant to be exposed for this though. What they have to be recorded saying that that is what they did? I agree with you that the numbers are probably small.
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Trans women are not women (Part 8)
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d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
Meadmaker
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What I find really weird is the anonymity and secrecy.
Sixteen members of the team were cited above, all anonymously.
Meanwhile, the story contains a different statement by "members". How many members? Never mind which ones. We can't even tell how many.
It makes it a bit difficult to gauge what the actual sentiment is among people most directly affected by Lia Thomas competing as a woman. And of course, there are no statements at all from the other teams, who are also directly affected by Lia Thomas competing as a woman.
d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
So far as I know, no scientific study has ever been designed (much less implemented) with the goal of discovering how many months of HRT would bring elite male performance averages down to elite female levels, in any sport. I'd be surprised if the answer isn't so high as to age the test subjects out of elite competition altogether. I'd also be surprised if the anti-TERF contingent supported such research.
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Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
My bad on the name. It's still ******** though.
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
Yup.
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
Your assumptions are incorrect. You frequently (and repeatedly, seemingly intentionally) mischaracterize the views of those you think of as "enemies".
Most of "us" (gender critical, gender atheist, radical feminists, common-sense feminists, and basic reasonable people as a whole) don't see it as a zero-sum situation, but we *do* see that *some* proposed policies have *obvious* negative effects on females. That's something that trans 'rights' activists like yourself pretend isn't a thing.
When it comes to actual rights, most of "us" are completely supportive. Even the most dedicated radical feminists in this thread, people who actually genuinely ARE radical feminists, 100% believe that transgender people should not be discriminated against for employment, housing, or medical care. Not a single one of us thinks that transgender people should be expected to suffer harassment, abuse, or violence on the basis of their presentation.
Those are actual, legitimate rights, and they're rights that I (and every other GC/TERF/RadFem I know) will fight for alongside transgender people.
The problem is that several of the things that transgender activists are demanding aren't rights at all - they're privileges. And they're privileges that put females at risk, or which reduce the ability of females to equally participate in society.
A male person competing on a female sports team isn't a right, it's a privilege. It's a special privilege granted to a subset of males, which is normally denied to males and reserved for females. And it's a privilege that is demanded on the presumption that the feelings of the male person are more important than fair competition for females.
A male person changing in a female locker room isn't a right, it's a privilege demanded by a subset of males, which is normally denied to males in general. And it's a privilege that is demanded on the presumption that the feelings of the male person are more important than the right of consent, the dignity, and the safety of females.
This demand for special privileges just got a 26 year old child rapist sentenced to two years in a female juvenile detention center - something that *should* be completely out of the question for any decent and compassionate person.
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
I don't find it weird at all. Every one of those female athletes would be putting their athletic careers, and in many cases their college careers at risk if they were to be identified. They also risk facing harassment, threat, and abuse for having dared to voice their views on the matter.
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
But cancel culture is a myth! Mere dissent never leads to unjust persecution! /s
Renee Richards.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renée_Richards
Didn’t win majors, but played on the professional circuit and made a living out of tennis.
ETA transwomen are eligible to play on the circuit though, and I think we will see more soon.
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“We have been told that if we spoke out against her inclusion into women’s competitions, that we would be removed from the team or that we would never get a job offer,” the letter states. “When media have tried to reach out to us, these journalists have been told that the coaches and athletes were prohibited from talking to them. We support Lia’s mental health, and we ask Penn and the Ivy League to support ours as well.”
Meadmaker
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I guess it makes sense from their perspective. What I was really thinking is how weird it is that they have to keep secret. America? Freedom of speech? It's a free country? (Remember when we used to say that? For you youngsters, yes, we really did say that. It was usually used in a context where we might today begin a sentence with "Meh". It was kind of "Whatever. You believe what you want. It's a free country.") So now someone who doesn't think a guy...er...uh....a woman who happens to have testicles, shouldn't be swimming in the women's section has to fear that she might be blacklisted for saying it out loud.
And meanwhile, the other side is anonymous, too.
I don't think any level would do so, at least for the majority of sports. The effects of male puberty on average height, skeleton, heart and lung capacity, etc cannot be undone by cross-sex hormones.
Meadmaker
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And then there are stories like this one:
https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2022/02...uber-photo-system-blocks-transgender-drivers/
Summary: Some California cities are suing Uber over issues with transgender drivers. Somehow, the issue is a system that somehow marks transgender driver ids as fraudulent.
What I object to in stories like this is that they leave out information in a deliberate attempt to make the company look bad, and to exaggerate the discrimination. I don't know the real story, because they don't give it, but reading between the lines I am guessing that Uber has some face recognition software, and face scans of transwomen keep coming up "male", and so the app flags it as fraudulent. That's a problem, but I'm also guessing that there's a way to resolve it.
Of course, that's all speculation on my part, because the story doesn't provide enough information. I suppose I'll look it up.
ETA: So, I looked it up. Basically, they have a process where people submit documentation to drive, and it checks submitted photos with government IDs that are on record, and if they don't match, they flag it as fraud. This results in people having to phone in to talk to human beings, getting put on hold, and sometimes the human beings make bad decisions that don't get it right.
It's primarily a story far too familiar in the modern age, where the basic problem is that so much is left to computers, bare bones customer service with low wage workers, and generally awful customer service that occurs when companies try to slash cost to the bone in order to be competitive. (And "be competitive" of course means paying ridiculous salraies to executives and managers, because, ya know, you just have to.)
For what it's worth, I think the lawsuit has at least some merit. I think Uber is in a situation where they are likely to discriminate against transgender people, and it seems, from the stories, that they aren't doing enough to fix the problem. On the other hand, I think there is exactly zero malicious intent by Uber. I think it's a problem of automation culture more than anti-transgender culture, but I do think they should be required to fix the problem, and reinstate, and even pay compensation to, people wrongfully frozen out of employment due to a company mistake. As long as it doesn't escalate to, "I was emotionally damaged when Uber shut me out, so me and my lawyers should get rich in order to teach them a lesson.", I have no problem with it.
I've never taken an Uber. Can a person seeking a ride specify that they want a femalecab Uber driver? I suppose, if so, that could raise some issues. I'm guessing that it is not possible to make that preference selection. I can understand why someone would want to make that specification, but allowing it is a lawsuit waiting to happen, so I'm guessing it's not possible.
https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2022/02...uber-photo-system-blocks-transgender-drivers/
Summary: Some California cities are suing Uber over issues with transgender drivers. Somehow, the issue is a system that somehow marks transgender driver ids as fraudulent.
What I object to in stories like this is that they leave out information in a deliberate attempt to make the company look bad, and to exaggerate the discrimination. I don't know the real story, because they don't give it, but reading between the lines I am guessing that Uber has some face recognition software, and face scans of transwomen keep coming up "male", and so the app flags it as fraudulent. That's a problem, but I'm also guessing that there's a way to resolve it.
Of course, that's all speculation on my part, because the story doesn't provide enough information. I suppose I'll look it up.
ETA: So, I looked it up. Basically, they have a process where people submit documentation to drive, and it checks submitted photos with government IDs that are on record, and if they don't match, they flag it as fraud. This results in people having to phone in to talk to human beings, getting put on hold, and sometimes the human beings make bad decisions that don't get it right.
It's primarily a story far too familiar in the modern age, where the basic problem is that so much is left to computers, bare bones customer service with low wage workers, and generally awful customer service that occurs when companies try to slash cost to the bone in order to be competitive. (And "be competitive" of course means paying ridiculous salraies to executives and managers, because, ya know, you just have to.)
For what it's worth, I think the lawsuit has at least some merit. I think Uber is in a situation where they are likely to discriminate against transgender people, and it seems, from the stories, that they aren't doing enough to fix the problem. On the other hand, I think there is exactly zero malicious intent by Uber. I think it's a problem of automation culture more than anti-transgender culture, but I do think they should be required to fix the problem, and reinstate, and even pay compensation to, people wrongfully frozen out of employment due to a company mistake. As long as it doesn't escalate to, "I was emotionally damaged when Uber shut me out, so me and my lawyers should get rich in order to teach them a lesson.", I have no problem with it.
I've never taken an Uber. Can a person seeking a ride specify that they want a female
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Meadmaker
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At least not safely.
In the end, that's a decision for doctors and scientists, but ever since I started paying attention to the issue, which was probably about the time The Atheist started this thread in 2019 (2018?), it's somethng I have worried about, and I haven't seen any indication I shouldn't be. I worry that the dose required to eliminate the male advantage, if it's possible to do so, would be unsafe for the users.
I think it would be a very bad idea to give anyone higher levels of CSH for the purposing of trying to eliminate a sporting advantage.
d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
I think you're probably correct, but I'm granting the premise that some amount of HRT will in fact do the trick, because I want to know whether the advocates of mixed-sex elite sports actually want to know how much. [emoji848]
30 seconds on google
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/dec/07/study-suggests-ioc-adjustment-period-for-trans-women-may-be-too-short
And more recently a couple of scientific papers
https://twitter.com/fondofbeetles/status/1368176214624571394
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I keep on raising this, but the main issue in contact sports is not speed but momentum. The advantage male bodied transwomen have in women’s contact sport is monumental.
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