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Trans women are not women (Part 8)

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Legit purely biological intersex conditions are statistically so rare that even bringing them into this discussion strikes me as pointless at best, dishonest at worst.

Intersex is functionally a completely different concept from transgenderism and the two get intertwined for no reason than progressivism's mistaken belief that everything that isn't the majority is on the same side.
 
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Yep! Like I keep saying, this thread would be a lot different and a lot shorter if it were actually about intersex rights and accommodations. But instead of the trans-activists acknowledging this and dropping that line of argument, they just give us the recurring fringe reset.
 
Looks like Lia Thomas won't be swimming at the NCAA championships this year.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2022/02/01/usa-swimming-transgender-policy/


Of course, lawyers have to go over things, but the intent of the policy seems pretty straightforward.

ETA: And, that really shouldn't be a surprise. Women's sports can't really exist when women like Lia Thomas are allowed to compete. Sooner or later, that policy will be moved to not so elite events as well, although with a bit more room for compromise. The intent will be there, though. "Elite" is really a local thing. The High School District Championship is elite among high schoolers in the district.
 
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Britain’s Equalities Watchdog Met Privately With Anti-Trans Groups
Exclusive: Leaked emails and documents obtained by VICE World News show how senior leaders at the Equality and Human Rights Commission worked to erase trans rights.

...

VICE World News has obtained documents revealing leaders at the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) as being key players in removing rights from trans people, through supporting legal cases that opposed trans equality.

The commission’s executives have also organised multiple private meetings with anti-trans lobbyists over the last year, the emails and documents reveal.
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Newly acquired documents reveal the cozy behind-the-scenes relationship between leadership of the human rights group and TERF organizations.

Equality campaigners have previously complained about the organisation being “too politicised” because the commission’s most senior leaders – also known as the commissioners, or board – are appointed by the minister for women and equalities, a role currently held by Liz Truss.

In December 2020, Truss – who is also UK Foreign Secretary and a potential successor to Boris Johnson as prime minister – appointed Baroness Kishwer Falkner as chair of the EHRC, which is the most important role in the organisation. Falkner also serves as a non-aligned member of the House of Lords.
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The article contains a nice summary of the recent history of the org taking an anti-trans stance, including the recent appointment of leadership by the conservative party.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/wxdzwn/ehrc-trans-rights-leaked-emails
 
"Williams has been accused of transphobia for repeatedly calling trans women “males”

A lot of medical textbooks say the same - Unless you're screaming it in someone's face I don't see how this is transphobic
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
Newly acquired documents reveal the cozy behind-the-scenes relationship between leadership of the human rights group and TERF organizations.



The article contains a nice summary of the recent history of the org taking an anti-trans stance, including the recent appointment of leadership by the conservative party.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/wxdzwn/ehrc-trans-rights-leaked-emails
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Wow. That's an incredibly biased article.

First and foremost, EHRC is not REMOVING any rights at all. The existing rights for gender reassigned people have not been reduced at all, and in fact are moving forward with reducing the cost of the certificate as well as reducing the length of time between diagnosis and certification. That article claims that EHRC is trying to "reduce" trans rights, which is an outright lie.

Secondly, EHRC didn't meet with "TERF" groups, they met with and listened to FEMALES who have a stake in these policies. And they met with FEMALES in addition to meeting with Trans-Rights organizations. You should probably do some research, because the prior policy efforts have been fueled by politicians meeting ONLY with Trans-Rights activists, and rather conspicuously refusing to meet with any organizations representing the interests of females.

At the end of the day, that Vox article is complete baloney.
 
Emily's Cat said:
Secondly, EHRC didn't meet with "TERF" groups, they met with and listened to FEMALES who have a stake in these policies.
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Same thing, right?



In a way, I've always been amused at the use of "TERF" as a slur. The radical feminists, and the not quite so radical feminists, and anyone who is concerned about women's rights recognizes that there are some ways where biology really is paramount, is going to end up excluding transwomen from something. So, "trans exclusionary" isn't an insult. But of course, the people who use the term don't really think, and so they use it as an insult, and so it's an insult. Like all sorts of other group tags, the word is not inherently offensive, but it becomes offensive based on how it is used.
 
Manger Douse said:
"Williams has been accused of transphobia for repeatedly calling trans women “males”

A lot of medical textbooks say the same - Unless you're screaming it in someone's face I don't see how this is transphobic
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Women/Men has meant females/males for as long as the words existed. Giving in to the practice of using the terms Woman to refer to a male, and Man to refer to a female under the guise of "gender is separate from sex" is moving to the inevitable, predictable, and purposeful next step wherein "male" and "female" are stripped of their meaning as well.
As evidenced by the recently linked articles wherein the terms are used interchangeably (which they rightly always have been, the new usage is a reversal of the paradigm) and various other recent scenarios (the highest grossing "female" Jeopardy contestant e.g.)

The slight of hand has worked like this:
"that is not a man, it is a woman"

"well, maybe biologically, but his 'gender' is a man"

"nonsense, gender is inextricably linked to sex"

"no, gender is a role- sex is not"

"oh, okay if you say so, I guess he is a man after all"

"which is why he is entitled to compete in "male" sports"

"what are you talking about? male is not a gender"

"of course it is- gender is inextricably linked to sex- and we have already agreed that his "gender" is a man- ergo his sex is ipso facto "male"

":mad:"
 
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Distracted1 said:
Women/Men has meant females/males for as long as the words existed. Giving in to the practice of using the terms Woman to refer to a male, and Man to refer to a female under the guise of "gender is separate from sex" is moving to the inevitable, predictable, and purposeful next step wherein "male" and "female" are stripped of their meaning as well.
As evidenced by the recently linked articles wherein the terms are used interchangeably (which they rightly always have been, the new usage is a reversal of the paradigm) and various other recent scenarios (the highest grossing "female" Jeopardy contestant e.g.)

The slight of hand has worked like this:
"that is not a man, it is a woman"

"well, maybe biologically, but his 'gender' is a man"

"nonsense, gender is inextricably linked to sex"

"no, gender is a role- sex is not"

"oh, okay if you say so, I guess he is a man after all"

"which is why he is entitled to compete in "male" sports"

"what are you talking about? male is not a gender"

"of course it is- gender is inextricably linked to sex- and we have already agreed that his "gender" is a man- ergo his sex is ipso facto "male"

":mad:"
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I think there is a more fundamental and older pattern going on. "Progress" is a direction not a destination. It is towards something like freeing the individual from moral prescriptions around outsider sexuality and lifestyle. At each step in the progress, the demand is looked at as a specific case. That the argument about sex may contradict the argument previously made on gender doesn't matter. What unifies them is the direction of travel - to liberate the abnormal from the tyranny of the normal. You do that by deconstructing the category "normal".
 
Meadmaker said:
Same thing, right?



In a way, I've always been amused at the use of "TERF" as a slur. The radical feminists, and the not quite so radical feminists, and anyone who is concerned about women's rights recognizes that there are some ways where biology really is paramount, is going to end up excluding transwomen from something. So, "trans exclusionary" isn't an insult. But of course, the people who use the term don't really think, and so they use it as an insult, and so it's an insult. Like all sorts of other group tags, the word is not inherently offensive, but it becomes offensive based on how it is used.
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I don't think it's a slur at all. It's quite clear that there is some use there as a designator. Even those that clutch their pearls about the term TERF often seem ok with the phrase "Gender Critical", which is essentially interchangeable. Liberal, feminist transphobes are meaningfully different in their opposition to trans people, especially trans women, than your run of the mill right wing transphobe. It's helpful to have a term for that, and TERF is an accurate descriptor. Especially in the context of the UK, where there is significant anti-trans voices within the liberal political world.

You're quite right that any stigma that comes with the term is rooted on how one views groups like Fair Play for Women or the LGB alliance.
 
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TERF is used by trans rights fundamentalists interchangeably with lesbians who don't want to sleep with males. That old rape culture again
 
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SuburbanTurkey said:
I don't think it's a slur at all.
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Are the people who TERF is thrown at usually radical feminists? Maybe sometimes, but if the word is a descriptor, then it is a very loose one that is used very widely. My impression is that when it is used, it is often not from the perspective of wanting to understand, or debate, the views of the TERF in question. Is JK Rowling a radical anything?
 
shuttlt said:
Are the people who TERF is thrown at usually radical feminists? Maybe sometimes, but if the word is a descriptor, then it is a very loose one that is used very widely. My impression is that when it is used, it is often not from the perspective of wanting to understand, or debate, the views of the TERF in question. Is JK Rowling a radical anything?
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"Radical feminist" is a somewhat misleading label, but it's a label that has stuck. Ironically, "radical" feminism is somewhat more old fashioned, tracing its roots back to the 60s and 70s.

It would be nicer if movements weren't named in such ways that don't age so well, that way you don't end up with "radical" feminists or "modernist" art that are actually throwbacks to prior eras, but whatcha gonna do?

I don't think it's any stretch of the imagination to call LGB Alliance or Fair Play for Women groups that are heavily influenced by radical feminist thought.
 
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SuburbanTurkey said:
"Radical feminist" is a somewhat misleading label, but it's a label that has stuck. Ironically, "radical" feminism is somewhat more old fashioned, tracing its roots back to the 60s and 70s.

It would be nicer if movements weren't name in such ways that don't age so well, that way you don't end up with "radical" feminists or "modernist" art that are actually throwbacks to prior eras, but whatcha gonna do?

I don't think it's any stretch of the imagination to call LGB Alliance or Fair Play for Women groups that are heavily influenced by radical feminist thought.
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OK, but if JK Rowling is a TERF, what does TERF actually mean? If it's a slur it doesn't really need to mean anything beyond labeling the despised enemy of the moment who must be silenced. If it's a slur, it doesn't need to be coherent. If it's a slur then having a nominal specific meaning while being applied widely to people that specific meaning doesn't fit is a feature not a bug. Does TERF actually mean anything beyond identifying somebody as an enemy of the trans-activists?
 
shuttlt said:
OK, but if JK Rowling is a TERF, what does TERF actually mean? If it's a slur it doesn't really need to mean anything beyond labeling the despised enemy of the moment who must be silenced. If it's a slur, it doesn't need to be coherent. If it's a slur then having a nominal specific meaning while being applied widely to people that specific meaning doesn't fit is a feature not a bug. Does TERF actually mean anything beyond identifying somebody as an enemy of the trans-activists?
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I would say a TERF is someone who believes that the advancement of trans rights necessarily results in a zero-sum loss of important rights for cis-women, and is thus opposed to trans rights as an expression of feminist principles.

In practical effect, I suppose there isn't much difference between a TERF and your run of the mill anti-gay/anti-trans right wing reactionary (which is why you see occasional cooperation between these otherwise opposed groups), but there is a difference in motivation.
 
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