Trans women are not women (Part 8)

[The Atheist]

I keep on asking this question without getting an answer. Is is okay for natal women to get beaten and injured by self identified, male bodied transwomen in contact sports? Because this is happening.

Of course it is, because if you disagree with it you're a TERF.

Let's get Tyson Fury to pull on a pair of panties after he's whipped Uysk and really unify the belts - all the men's and women's titles!

Guys competing against women in contact sports is abhorrent, which is exactly the world the extreme trans activists want.

 

[digger]

Oh I see. We stop women playing rugby, AFL football, boxing and so on until rules are changed to make these sports redundant?

Can’t you see a simpler solution? Simply banning self identified non transitioned transwomen.

So you're not truly concerned with protecting amateur athletes from injury. You just don't want trans women to play.

 

[digger]

Of course it is, because if you disagree with it you're a TERF.

Let's get Tyson Fury to pull on a pair of panties after he's whipped Uysk and really unify the belts - all the men's and women's titles!

Guys competing against women in contact sports is abhorrent, which is exactly the world the extreme trans activists want.

What's that? You threw yourself down a slippery slope and I can't quite make out the details of your insane ramblings anymore.

 

[Ziggurat]

No, it's not OK for athletes to injure each other for our entertainment, especially amateur youth athletes.

Amateur athletes don't risk injury for our entertainment. They risk injury for their own entertainment.

It's professional athletes who risk injury for our entertainment.

And the point isn't to remove any risk, it's to remove disproportionate risk.

By the way my boy plays in an intersex soccer league. Everyone wears shin guards and no one is allowed to hit the ball with their heads.

At sufficiently young age, there's really no need to separate the sexes, because pre-puberty, boys don't have much of a size or strength advantage over girls, and young kids don't have the strength to easily cause serious injury to themselves or others anyways.

At older ages, mixed sports is fine if they're non-contact or have sufficiently limited contact, and if you can either balance the mix with teams or if the competitiveness isn't really important to the enjoyment.

 

[Ziggurat]

So you're not truly concerned with protecting amateur athletes from injury.

I'm concerned with protecting them from disproportionate risk.

I would never allow my daughter to enter competitive cheerleading, for example. That's the most dangerous high school sport.

You just don't want trans women to play.

No, they can and should play. Just mostly against other males. Not sure why you have a problem with them doing so.

 

[theprestige]

Ya'll have demonstrated my point for me perfectly. You don't care about protecting prisoners from rape. Even considering how we would do that is utopian idealism to you. It's just not the subject of this thread.

You're absolutely right. It's not the topic of this thread.

The topic of this thread is the nature of transgender identity and public policy relating to the rights and accommodations trans-identifying people are entitled to.

Prisons only come into it because there is a public policy question about where to house trans-identifying inmates. This question cannot be answered by handwaving away the entire problem of prison violence.

What you're attempting here is an intentional derail, which is explicitly against the MA.

You only care about these issues in so far as you can use them as bludgeons to attack trans people with.

This is the kind of wrongheaded take that comes from not actually reading the thread or participating in the on-topic discussion.

Trans-activist positions on these issues is being used as a bludgeon to attack trans-activism.

 

[theprestige]

No, they can and should play. Just mostly against other males. Not sure why you have a problem with them doing so.

As far as I can tell, even trans-activism isn't sure why it has a problem with transwomen competing as men.

It'll be interesting to see if digger can articulate their rationale in a way that doesn't immediately deprecate women.

 

[lionking]

So you're not truly concerned with protecting amateur athletes from injury. You just don't want trans women to play.

Bloody hell. Such a dishonest post.

I have made many posts here about my concern for women being injured by transwomen in contact sports. Why did you use the word “amateur” by the way? I didn’t.

 

[digger]

You're absolutely right. It's not the topic of this thread.

The topic of this thread is the nature of transgender identity and public policy relating to the rights and accommodations trans-identifying people are entitled to.

Prisons only come into it because there is a public policy question about where to house trans-identifying inmates. This question cannot be answered by handwaving away the entire problem of prison violence.

What you're attempting here is an intentional derail, which is explicitly against the MA.


This is the kind of wrongheaded take that comes from not actually reading the thread or participating in the on-topic discussion.

Trans-activist positions on these issues is being used as a bludgeon to attack trans-activism.

This sort of rules lawyering pettifogging won't work on me. I didn't even bring up prison rape. I just pointed out that we wouldn't have to worry about where to put trans people if nobody were getting raped in the showers.

You think that where to put trans inmates is a pressing public policy issue. I'm saying it's only pressing because we haven't addressed the real issue here, which is all the prison rape. Address the real issue, and the made up trans issue just disappears.... Nobody cares where the trans people go as long as nobody is being raped in the showers.

Pretending that you lost the thread of the conversation and condescendingly lecturing me about rules that don't apply isn't going to get you out of the bad argument you've decided to plant your flag on.

 

[Olmstead]

Ya'll have demonstrated my point for me perfectly. You don't care about protecting prisoners from rape. Even considering how we would do that is utopian idealism to you. It's just not the subject of this thread.

You only care about these issues in so far as you can use them as bludgeons to attack trans people with.

Ya'll have demonstrated my point for me perfectly. You don't care about completely eradicating COVID. Even considering how we would do that is utopian idealism to you. It's just not the subject of this thread.

You only care about these issues in so far as you can use them as bludgeons to attack people who don't wear masks or don't want to get vaccinated.

 

[d4m10n]

Why do I have to demonstrate that someone has already achieved zero assaults, before you admit that it is a worthy goal?

Because, as I alluded to earlier, human males pose a unique threat to human females when it comes to sexual assault. Some places (e.g. Georgia) still take cognizance of this fact in their criminal codes. If you're going to argue for abolition of sex segregation in U.S. prisons, you're going to have to do so as well.

Nobody cares where the trans people go as long as nobody is being raped in the showers.

Voyeurism is also an issue. Darren Agee Merager didn't assault anyone, but still caused quite a stir.

 

[theprestige]

This sort of rules lawyering pettifogging won't work on me. I didn't even bring up prison rape. I just pointed out that we wouldn't have to worry about where to put trans people if nobody were getting raped in the showers.

Exactly. You're handwaving away a policy problem you don't have a solution for, by postulating some future utopia that doesn't help us today.

And it's a fringe reset. This discussion has already been had several times.

You think that where to put trans inmates is a pressing public policy issue. I'm saying it's only pressing because we haven't addressed the real issue here, which is all the prison rape. Address the real issue, and the made up trans issue just disappears.... Nobody cares where the trans people go as long as nobody is being raped in the showers.

Already addressed.

Pretending that you lost the thread of the conversation and condescendingly lecturing me about rules that don't apply isn't going to get you out of the bad argument you've decided to plant your flag on.

Already addressed.

 

[Ziggurat]

This sort of rules lawyering pettifogging won't work on me. I didn't even bring up prison rape. I just pointed out that we wouldn't have to worry about where to put trans people if nobody were getting raped in the showers.

Logically true but practically irrelevant.

You think that where to put trans inmates is a pressing public policy issue.

It is for inmates at risk.

I'm saying it's only pressing because we haven't addressed the real issue here, which is all the prison rape. Address the real issue, and the made up trans issue just disappears.... Nobody cares where the trans people go as long as nobody is being raped in the showers.

Wait... are you under the impression that prison rape can only occur in the shower?

Because that's really, really stupid.

Pretending that you lost the thread of the conversation and condescendingly lecturing me about rules that don't apply isn't going to get you out of the bad argument you've decided to plant your flag on.

You have this completely backwards, as usual. You haven't even picked up the thread of the conversation, which has covered all of this in the past, more than once, making the same mistakes you're simply repeating.

 

[The Atheist]

So you're not truly concerned with protecting amateur athletes from injury.

That's a perfect way to remove any doubt that you have even the slightest idea of what you're talking about regarding sports.

If it was amateur sport, blokes wouldn't be wearing panties to compete. It's 100% down to professionalism that they want to compete against women.

No money = no fake chicks in the competition.

 

[d4m10n]

It's 100% down to professionalism that they want to compete against women.

NCAA swimmers don't get paid.

 

[Emily's Cat]

In other UK news, the Equality and Human Rights Commission has written two letters. One to the Scottish government expresses concerns about the nature of the debate on reform of the Gender Recognition Act and recommends caution over the reforms. The other recommends confining the proposed conversion therapy ban in the UK to sexual orientation only until there are clearer concepts of what is meant by 'transgender' and 'conversion therapy' in relation to gender identity and more information about the impact of on treatment of gender dysphoria.

The last is important since the conversion therapy ban is a Trojan horse. The EHRC seems to have hit the nail on the head:

'The consultation document contains no clear definition of what will amount to “conversion therapy” caught by its proposals, nor of the meaning of “transgender” – a term which has no clear legal meaning, is potentially wider than the concept of gender reassignment in current UK law, and is understood by different people in different ways. Nor does the consultation address the possible need to consider a differentiated approach in relation to sexual orientation and being transgender so as to ensure, in particular, that clinicians and therapists are not prohibited from providing appropriate care and support for individuals with gender dysphoria. '

There's been much applause from my side of the pond on this, and hope that perhaps such common sense will find its way to the US.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

There's been much applause from my side of the pond on this, and hope that perhaps such common sense will find its way to the US.

Doubt it.

The UK seems somewhat unique in that there's a large division concerning transphobia within the supposed liberal side of the political spectrum. It's making for a pretty nasty divorce within these civil rights groups as the trans inclusionists and TERFs draw lines in the sand and fight over territory.

It's notable that the TERFs had little such luck in Canada. Likewise in the US the loudest voices opposing trans rights aren't liberal TERFs, but run-of-the-mill right wing anti-gay types.

Not to say that transphobia isn't a popular opinion here in the US, but it doesn't seem that TERF voices have very much to do with that.

A human rights group waffling on whether conversion therapy is bad seems to be a somewhat unique product of the Cursed Isle.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Interesting link, thanks.



I wonder if the fact that it's all women is an artifact of them more likely to meet and befriend (and thus form a group with) other women, or if detransitioning is actually more common among women & girls. Perhaps someone has actually measured.

There's been some preliminary work done on this, by both Lisa Littman and Abigail Shrier. While nothing is 100% solid, there are a couple of hypotheses that I find plausible.

One is that these are pubescent females who are fleeing womanhood. We currently have a pretty heavily pornified culture, and the amount of sexism and misogyny out there has increased since I was a young woman. The pressure on young females to perform sexually, especially with respect to sex acts that are painful or harmful, has increased massively, and there's quite a bit of harassment of females as "prude" and "outdated" if they say no to things like anal sex or choking. Add in the rather dramatic change in the life of a young female when they start growing breasts, and I'm not surprised that many of them wish to "opt out" of it altogether. Hell, if there'd been a way to sidestep all of that when I was younger, I might well have taken it. There's nothing like being a 12 year old and being incredibly self-conscious because adult males won't stop ogling your breasts and butt to make a young female really uncomfortable in their body. And having a middle-aged man throw torn out pages of porn at you and asking if 14-year-old you wants to "give that a try" with them really makes a female's sexed body seem like a torturous prison.

The other hypothesis has to do with social contagion, something that is massively more common in teenaged females than in males. It was one of the vectors in repressed memories of childhood sex abuse, ritual satanic abuse, anorexia, and cutting. I don't really understand the drivers behind it, but it's definitely a thing, and it seems that identifying as transgender among teen females is very likely to be part of the same phenomenon.

The latter hypothesis is reinforced by the recent rise in young females self-diagnosing as having Dissociative Identity Disorder... which is happening in real time now. It's very strange.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Have you seen or heard which book it was? I've seen claims that it was one by Brunskell-Evans but no confirmation from the alleged hate speaker or the Gwent constabulary.

That's the one.

Transgender Children and Young People

 

[Emily's Cat]

The obvious conclusion. But you haven't questioned the frame. Always question the frame.

Why are we having this discussion? I don't think that your interlocutors actually care about the gender purity of female prisons. The point of this conversation, baked into the assumptions of the OP and never challenged, is to establish that trans identity is something to be debated. People who don't really know or care about trans people or female prisoners can debate it at length and seem reasonable.

That is demonstrably false throughout this entire thread. It's also quite insulting.

Transgender people certainly do exist, but SELF-ID is a horrible idea that puts females at risk. It is not "debating trans identity" to point out that a gigantic obvious gaping loophole that allows predatory males to gain access to vulnerable females simply by saying magic words out loud is a risk to females.