Trans women are not women (Part 8)

[Ziggurat]

If all assault were prevented in all bathrooms in all prisons, we wouldn't have to worry quite so much about which population to put the sexual predators in with.

That isn't even possible to achieve.

Seriously, why would it be easier to prevent all crime in a population of exclusively criminals than it is to prevent all crime in the general population? Yeah, yeah, we can and should do a better job at reducing the rate of violence in prison. But you cannot eliminate it completely, ever. Not without simply isolating everyone, which is actually even worse than exposing them to some risk of violence.

 

[digger]

That isn't even possible to achieve.

Seriously, why would it be easier to prevent all crime in a population of exclusively criminals than it is to prevent all crime in the general population? Yeah, yeah, we can and should do a better job at reducing the rate of violence in prison. But you cannot eliminate it completely, ever. Not without simply isolating everyone, which is actually even worse than exposing them to some risk of violence.

This underscores just how little you care about preventing violence in prison. You dismiss it as not even possible without ever considering it for a second.

It would be easy to prevent prisoners from brutalizing each other because they are in a controlled environment. We don't have to force anyone to share a shower with sexual predators.

Let me repeat that. We don't have to force anyone to share a shower with sexual predators. There, now we can stop arguing about which people we should force to share a shower with sexual predators.

 

[theprestige]

That isn't even possible to achieve.

Seriously, why would it be easier to prevent all crime in a population of exclusively criminals than it is to prevent all crime in the general population? Yeah, yeah, we can and should do a better job at reducing the rate of violence in prison. But you cannot eliminate it completely, ever. Not without simply isolating everyone, which is actually even worse than exposing them to some risk of violence.

One of the frames we've been questioning in this thread is the trans-activist's framing that they don't have to address questions about sex segregation in prisons if they just assume a utopia instead.

 

[digger]

One of the frames we've been questioning in this thread is the trans-activist's framing that they don't have to address questions about sex segregation in prisons if they just assume a utopia instead.

Yes, we do have competing frames. Your frame assumes that someone is going to have to share a shower with a convicted sexual predator, and you would like to argue about who it'll be. Your frame casts the idea that nobody should get raped in prison showers as an unachievable utopia. Why is that?

 

[theprestige]

Yes, we do have competing frames. Your frame assumes that someone is going to have to share a shower with a convicted sexual predator, and you would like to argue about who it'll be. Your frame casts the idea that nobody should get raped in prison showers as an unachievable utopia. Why is that?

This has already been addressed. You say you're questioning the frame, but all you're really doing here is a fringe reset. Maybe follow the discussion and add something new, rather than trying to start over with the same old claims when you don't see it going your way?

 

[Olmstead]

Yes, we do have competing frames. Your frame assumes that someone is going to have to share a shower with a convicted sexual predator, and you would like to argue about who it'll be. Your frame casts the idea that nobody should get raped in prison showers as an unachievable utopia. Why is that?

You are free to make an argument for unisex prisons.

 

[digger]

All human beings should be treated with dignity. That includes prisoners. So prisoners should have private showers. No more rape in prison showers. See how easy that is? We don't need to argue endlessly about who should have to share a shower with the convicted sexual predator who is pretending to be trans. The obvious answer is, no one.

This solution to trans issues is generalizable. The only time you need to carve out special protections for trans people, or worry a whole lot about which populations you segregate them into, is when someone's human rights are being violated. The solution is always to make sure that no one's human rights are being violated. Then everyone is OK.

The problem for trans people is that they get the short end of all the sticks.

 

[d4m10n]

When questioning the frame, it helps if you've been paying attention to the discussion and understand what the frame actually is.

Happened across a fairly concise framing of most of the issues in this thread just the other day, while reading Helen Joyce.

The idea is that people should count as men or women according to how they feel and what they declare, instead of their biology. It's called gender self-identification, and it is the central tenet of a fast-developing belief system which sees everyone as possessing a gender identity that may or may not match the body in which it is housed. When there is a mismatch, the person is 'transgender' – trans for short – and it is the identity, not the body, that should determine how everyone else sees and treats them.

This is the most concise and accurate statement of the crux idea at issue here that I've yet seen.

 

[d4m10n]

All human beings should be treated with dignity. That includes prisoners. So prisoners should have private showers. No more rape in prison showers. See how easy that is?

Zeroing out sexual assault between prisoners is so damn easy that you've provided exactly zero examples of an actual prison system pulling it off in practice. As long as we're fantasizing about an ideal world, why not picture one completely free of violent crime? Then the prison problem just goes away.

 

[digger]

You are free to make an argument for unisex prisons.

You're free to make an argument for prison rape, or entirely miss the point.

 

[Ziggurat]

This underscores just how little you care about preventing violence in prison. You dismiss it as not even possible without ever considering it for a second.

You have that exactly backwards. It's precisely because I have considered it at length that I know it's not possible.

It would be easy to prevent prisoners from brutalizing each other because they are in a controlled environment.

That's... not actually how violence works. Unless you isolate people, you cannot prevent the possibility of violence. You can only reduce it, which I explicitly said we can and should do. But make it zero? Nope, not possible.

We don't have to force anyone to share a shower with sexual predators.

As if that alone solved the problem.

Hint: it doesn't.

 

[digger]

Zeroing out sexual assault between prisoners is so damn easy that you've provided exactly zero examples of an actual prison system pulling it off in practice.

As long as we're fantasizing about an ideal world, why not picture one completely free of violent crime? Then the prison problem just goes away.

Oh, now you've asked for it! Humane prisons... you haven't done your research, have you? I'll be right back.

 

[lionking]

All human beings should be treated with dignity. That includes prisoners. So prisoners should have private showers. No more rape in prison showers. See how easy that is? We don't need to argue endlessly about who should have to share a shower with the convicted sexual predator who is pretending to be trans. The obvious answer is, no one.

This solution to trans issues is generalizable. The only time you need to carve out special protections for trans people, or worry a whole lot about which populations you segregate them into, is when someone's human rights are being violated. The solution is always to make sure that no one's human rights are being violated. Then everyone is OK.

The problem for trans people is that they get the short end of all the sticks.

I keep on asking this question without getting an answer. Is is okay for natal women to get beaten and injured by self identified, male bodied transwomen in contact sports? Because this is happening.

 

[digger]

The world standard for humane prisons isNorway. Norway's low-security prisons are pretty lax.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/feb/25/norwegian-prison-inmates-treated-like-people

But inmates only go there if they're non violent, or once they're well on their way to rehabilitation. High-security prisons are, well, high-security.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halden_Prison

Prisoners are locked in their cells with their own private showers from 8PM to 8AM. They are encouraged to come out of their cells for daily activities that are highly supervised. They don't leave unreformed sexual predators alone in a room with anyone who can't call for help.

Do you want to compare this to US prisons, or are you ready to concede the point?

 

[d4m10n]

Humane prisons... you haven't done your research, have you?

I haven't done your research.

Do you want to compare this to US prisons, or are you ready to concede the point?

When did Halden achieve zero assaults?

Have they made Halden unisex yet?

 

[digger]

I keep on asking this question without getting an answer. Is is okay for natal women to get beaten and injured by self identified, male bodied transwomen in contact sports? Because this is happening.

No, it's not OK for athletes to injure each other for our entertainment, especially amateur youth athletes. We should shut down the entire sport until the rules are changed so that nobody has any life altering injuries. Head injuries are particularly bad but knee injuries aren't great. Football is the big offender in this but most sports should be reformed.

Once we've reformed sports to remove all life altering injuries for amateur youth, is your problem solved?

By the way my boy plays in an intersex soccer league. Everyone wears shin guards and no one is allowed to hit the ball with their heads.

 

[digger]

I haven't done your research.


When did Halden achieve zero assaults?

Have they made Halden unisex yet?

Interesting framing. Why do I have to demonstrate that someone has already achieved zero assaults, before you admit that it is a worthy goal?

And why do you keep on bringing up unisex prisons? I never made an argument for unisex prisons. You asked me to and I declined. When are you going to lay out your argument for prison rape?

 

[lionking]

No, it's not OK for athletes to injure each other for our entertainment, especially amateur youth athletes. We should shut down the entire sport until the rules are changed so that nobody has any life altering injuries. Head injuries are particularly bad but knee injuries aren't great. Football is the big offender in this but most sports should be reformed.

Once we've reformed sports to remove all life altering injuries for amateur youth, is your problem solved?

By the way my boy plays in an intersex soccer league. Everyone wears shin guards and no one is allowed to hit the ball with their heads.

Oh I see. We stop women playing rugby, AFL football, boxing and so on until rules are changed to make these sports redundant?

Can’t you see a simpler solution? Simply banning self identified non transitioned transwomen.

 

[Olmstead]

Interesting framing. Why do I have to demonstrate that someone has already achieved zero assaults, before you admit that it is a worthy goal?

And why do you keep on bringing up unisex prisons? I never made an argument for unisex prisons. You asked me to and I declined. When are you going to lay out your argument for prison rape?

What are you doing in the transgender thread? Open up a topic on prison conditions.

 

[digger]

Ya'll have demonstrated my point for me perfectly. You don't care about protecting prisoners from rape. Even considering how we would do that is utopian idealism to you. It's just not the subject of this thread.

You only care about these issues in so far as you can use them as bludgeons to attack trans people with.