Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part V

[Andy_Ross]

No. I am sure he is not the only one who had sight of the open letter.

Where did you get it from?

 

[Andy_Ross]

already asked and answered my question so deleted.

 

[Marras]

Did you not understand my post wherein I stated that I know the history and you apparently do not. I think you have simply looked at a random textbook, characteristically light on detail, whereas I know about it in depth and intricately.

You have stated many things that are not true...

You weren't even aware of the only book-length monograph about the road. And you haven't provided even one contemporary example of people using Härkätie in a contemporary context from the early 20th century, while I have given you many examples of the use Hämeentie.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

You're either competent or you're not. There is no other third position here.

Are you competent to assess Bjorkman's claims, yes or no?

Well?

 

[Marras]

Here you go, then:

From Eesti Päevaleht 990917
.

By the way, if you read through the interview you'll notice that Moik himself didn't see Piht on TV. His crew members did. Moik was a close friend of Piht, we don't know how well the others knew him.

Moik also said that Mörd was with him that morning. So whatever he said about Piht's car travel to Helsinki, he wasn't an eyewitness himself.

 

[LondonJohn]

Sven Anér has of course been dead for over three years.

And I'd like to see the poll that say that 27% of the Swedish (living?) population agree with Bollyn on Estonia.

Note that the poll I posted say that 27% of the respondents more or less agree with the statement "Den verkliga orsaken till Estoniakatastrofen har mörklagts av myndigheterna"

My translation:
The real cause of the Estonian disaster has been hidden by the authorities.

That certainly does not mean that all those 27% agree with one specific conspiracy theory!

And that's not to mention, of course, that large swathes of the general public appear predisposed to believe that their governments routinely lie to them wrt these sorts of incidents.

For example, a 2016 poll found that over 50% of Americans thought the US Government was hiding important information about the cause and execution of the 9/11 attacks. And over 40% of Americans still believe that the Warren Commission intentionally covered up the true facts behind JFK's assassination.

People like conspiracy theories, it seems. And some people like them more than others.......

 

[MarkCorrigan]

53.6% of Brits are Christian. Doesn't stop Christianity being wrong.

 

[JesseCuster]

The Eesti Päevaleht

Yes, that's the same vague reference Bjorkman gives for the interview, no date or any other details.

Which is why that's all you know about where the interview came from.

This is by the by, your claim is that Moik was dismissed from his job because of that interview and you've provided exactly zero evidence for this claim.

Can you provide evidence that Moik was dismissed from his job because of that interview or are you going to squirm your way again out of answer a simple question?

What's your evidence that Erich Moik was dismissed because of an interview he gave?

 

[Marras]

What's your evidence that Erich Moik was dismissed because of an interview he gave?

Though, that isn't a particularly outlandish claim. In most industries it is a bit of a career-limiting move to accuse the owner of your workplace of arranging multiple murders and committing insurance fraud.

 

[JesseCuster]

YI should have thought looking up Estonians and others trying to smuggle dangerous metals past customs from the FSU in the 90's, in Sweden and Finland, a doddle.

If it's a doddle, then why do you refuse to do it?

You've been repeatedly asked for evidence that Swedish and Finnish customs regularly came across incidences of smuggling nuclear material, and so far you've provided zero evidence.

Your first pathetic attempt to give evidence was a link to instances of smuggling nuclear material, none of which involved Sweden or Finland.

You then provided another couple of stories, one of which involved somebody being arrested in Estonia and exactly one other story of someone smuggling Californium into Finland.

That's it, you've been repeatedly asked for evidence of this supposedly common occurrence and have been entirely unable to do so, and now you've fallen back on the lazy old trope of asking others to search it for themselves.

And you boast about how good a researcher you are, how you go to libraries and national archives and have all sorts of eclectic sources, how you're a dispassionate researcher and how your posts are sourced, cited and properly referenced. Laughable.

 

[JesseCuster]

Though, that isn't a particularly outlandish claim. In most industries it is a bit of a career-limiting move to accuse the owner of your workplace of arranging multiple murders and committing insurance fraud.

True, I'm not even claiming it's false, I'm just seeing if Vixen has any actual evidence herself and that she isn't just getting it from Bjorkman's website, which appears to be the case, she's copied and pasted chunks from his website recently, Sven Aner's letter and the interview with Erich Moik, but is desperately trying to claim that Bjorkman isn't her source for her claim about Moik's supposed dismissal.

 

[JesseCuster]

Here you go, then:

From Eesti Päevaleht 990917

First of all, copying and pasting the interview doesn't answer the question of how you know that Moik was dismissed as a result of the interview. Why is it that when you're asked for evidence you copy and paste stuff or post links that contain absolutely none of the evidence you're asked for?

Secondly, searching Google for the exact phrase "Eesti Päevaleht 990917", the only result is Anders Bjorkman's website. Which means you definitely are copying and pasting this stuff from his website.

 

[JayUtah]

Which means you definitely are copying and pasting this stuff from his website.

Which answers the question why she must post irrelevant material. Far from doing her own research, as she claims, she can only provide what her conspiracy authors provide for her. If they don't have a document that answers the question directly, all she can do is copy the closest thing.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Though, that isn't a particularly outlandish claim. In most industries it is a bit of a career-limiting move to accuse the owner of your workplace of arranging multiple murders and committing insurance fraud.

Vixen's claim was not that he was dismissed for accusing his employer of very serious crimes. She claimed he was dismissed for saying he had seen Piht on TV.

 

[Mojo]

What was your source for the claim that the Swedish government disappeared the two Egyptians, and that this was confirmed to have happened by court decisions (you initially specified the ECHR)?

Sven Anér and Drew Wilson.

Links please.

 

[Mojo]

You and Marras are the ones with newspaper libraries at your finger tips. If you can look up complex laws on human rights and he can find Härkätie mentions from TURUN SANOMAT 1918 (or rather, claims it doesn't exist), I should have thought looking up Estonians and others trying to smuggle dangerous metals past customs from the FSU in the 90's, in Sweden and Finland, a doddle.

Are you saying that you are unable to access the publications you claim to be using as sources?

 

[Mojo]

Because I have critical faculties by which I assess information.

 

[Mojo]

No, I deleted it straight away, yet you saw fit to retrieve it and quote it. Why did you do that?

So you did so because you wanted to retrieve an error in order to call me out and shout to everybody - Look she made an error and tried to edit it, but I've captured it!

Captain Swoop quoted your post at 11:12, you edited it at 11:13. Nothing was “retrieved”. You were called on it, then you deleted it.

 

[Mojo]

Then stop deleting inconvenient posts and just admit "Oops, sorry guess this was wrong".

Then take it up with the correct person.

Do you have some sort of handler telling you how you should post?

 

[Mojo]

Then it's not reasonable to expect you to remember the point accurately.



This is not what is in dispute. We know the Egyptians were flown from Sweden to Egypt on an airplane that was later linked with other activities attributable to the CIA. There are proceedings in the ECHR that enter the relevant facts into the record. We don't need to look to journalists to substantiate that.

The question is not how the Egyptians were transported, or on what aircraft, but whether Sweden's treatment of them amounted to "enforced disappearance" under the Rome Statute or any other relevant law. If Anér is your new source for that claim then you're on the hook to provide a verifiable citation to it.

Here we go:

Sven Anér wrote the following letter:

Correspondence 6 June 2001

Embassy of Finland, Stockholm.

Polis Authority at Turku. Commissaire Veikko Koiranen (or deputy)

The following documents are referred to:

A (List 12 above). According my info this list of survivors from the Estonia, dated 28.9 94 at 11.50 hrs, has been handed over by Mr. Eino Selirand of the Finnish embassy at Tallinn to the Port Authority of Tallinn.

B (List 11 above). According notes on the document this list has before 13.25 hrs on 28.9 94 been handed over by Mr Tönu Karu of the Tallinn City Hall to the Baltic News Service at Tallinn. The list names "The first rescued persons known are:"

Two names are on both lists:

Tiina Müür and Avo Piht.

Checking the Turku police lists of surviviors of the same day at 20.00 hrs, stamped and signed by Veikko Koiranen, these two names are missing.

My question is: How come that both names disappear during the day of the 28 september 1994, from the lists of the Turku police, in spite of the fact that they are listed on two earlier, official lists originating from the port of Tallinn, the Finnish embassy at Tallinn, the Tallin City Hall and the Baltic News Service?

These two persons, Müür and Piht, have not been found dead or drowned. What evidence that they had not survived did the Turku police receive on the 28 September 1994? Did the Turku police check with the port of Tallinn, the Finnish embassy at Tallinn, the Tallinn City Hall and the Baltic News Service and did you find that all four were mistaken?

I can very well understand that persons from the Estonia are first declared dead and later are found to have survived, but it is very difficult to understand the opposite event, thus that persons are first declared to have been rescued and thereafter are declared to be dead, without finding the bodies.

I look forward to a reply, friendly regards

Sven Anér

Pathetic.

That is about names disappearing from a list of survivors in 1994. The claim you are supposed to be supporting is that Aner said that Sweden subjected two Egyptians to enforced disappearance in 2001, and that this was confirmed to have happened by a court of law and the ECHR (or at least some international court). Do I need to go into any more detail about why this doesn’t support your claim, or can you figure it out for yourself?