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Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part V

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Vixen said:
Californium was my typo. Habit from schooldays capitalising the names of Periodic Table elements.

The others would be newspaper headline standards.
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Uhm. That's a curious reaction.
Capitalizing a word would not change a letter in the middle of it.
 
SpitfireIX said:
Seriously, that's your excuse? That the governments of Russia, China, Iran, and Cuba won't allow their structural engineers to reveal information that would be extremely embarrassing and destabilizing to the United States? There aren't enough laughing dogs to do that one justice.




It was in the excerpt I posted from his book, which you apparently didn't bother to read carefully.




The excerpt I posted from the ADL article about Bollyn, which you again apparently didn't bother to read carefully, describes his having attended Holocaust denial conferences.

So, to go along with Jay's much more comprehensive post on the subject, I renew one of the many questions you've repeatedly dodged. How is it that everything else Björkman and Bollyn say is extremely outrageous and offensive, yet what they say about the Estonia is completely reasonable and not a conspiracy theory?
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Wait! Are you saying that Bjorkman is also a neo-nazi?


Unfortunately, there are people with a political agenda who will latch onto social issues or disasters and try to hijack them. It doesn't mean they own that disaster or social issue.
 
Vixen said:
I knew nothing about Bollyn, except that he quoted Aner, whose investigative journalism into the Estonia, I was already aware of and familiar with.
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Please link to, or provide a citation for, the report by Aner that Bollyn quoted.

ETA: That would be a report supporting your claim that the Egyptians were disappeared by Sweden, and that this had been confirmed as true by a court of law and the ECHR.
 
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Vixen said:
Nucleonics Week has the smuggled Californium-235 as probably originating from the Tomsk-7 nuclear complex in Siberia.
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There is no such thing as californium-235. Uranium-235, yes.
 
Vixen said:
Nucleonics Week has the smuggled Californium-235 as probably originating from the Tomsk-7 nuclear complex in Siberia.
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I sincerely doubt Californium-235 is worth smuggling, since it simply does not exist.
 
Vixen said:
Jutta Raab thought he had been taken to a US military zone in Germany.
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And you can't see how a thoroughly-discredited "journalist" making nebulous comments that they "thought" something had happened....

....isn't worth the (metaphorical) paper it's written on?


You really do need some education about sources, and specifically what constitutes a trusted source (and what, most assuredly, does not).
 
Vixen said:
Nucleonics Week has the smuggled Californium-235 as probably originating from the Tomsk-7 nuclear complex in Siberia.
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Vixen, you're not actually getting any of this from Nucleonics Week itself, are you?

My guess is that you're using The Non-Proliferation Review (the spring/summer 1994 edition), although they don't make the 235 error, so I could be mistaken.
 
Vixen said:
If something comes through Reuters then you know it is verified news.
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If you tell us Reuters report that person A said person B spoke to person C then yes I am inclined to trust Reuters: i.e. I trust that person A said that thing.

Two caveats remain: Firstly, it does not show that person A's claim was true, only that they made the claim. Secondly, and sadly more importantly in this thread, is that what Reuters actually reported?
 
Vixen said:
That is nonsense. In a disaster with just a handful of survivors, and as logged by the helicopter pilots, hospitals and other officials, what is the problem in getting the correct number of survivors, or explaining how come survivors originally listed were now removed?
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Your hands must have a grotesquely abnormal number of fingers.

And as you've now been told several times, there were survivors coming ashore via multiple routes, to multiple shore locations, and at differing times. And all against a backdrop of extreme fatigue, shock (clinical and sociological), panic, and a complex matrix of communications and information dissemination. Mistakes and misunderstandings were, frankly, almost inevitable in that context - it would actually have been very unusual if they'd arrived at the right number with the right identities right from the get-go. You don't know what you're talking about.
 
Vixen said:
Newspapers and broadcasters do have copy written in advance for expected major news items, for example, the approaching end of life for a monarch, or the expected outcome of a trial. They will be ready to go straight into print or an interminable 'news flash' with ready footage of the 'life & times', as with the recent death of the Duke of Edinburgh.

That is completely different to reporters on the scene of a developing incident.
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Unsurprisingly, you missed the point entirely.
 
Marras said:
Oh, read more carefully.

"According to the status in the evening a total of 140 people were rescued during the day". https://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/art-2000003370243.html


"There were 776 passengers and 188 crew members. According to evening status 140 of them were rescued" https://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/art-2000003370242.html

"A total of 140 people survived" https://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/art-2000003370645.html

"140 people survived the sinking" https://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/art-2000003370616.html

"According to Finnish officials, 140 people were rescued from the ship" https://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/art-2000003370653.html

Whenever Helsingin Sanomat is using that figure 140, they are using it for the total number of survivors.

But this was yet another example of your diversions when you get caught lying about your sources.

You said that HS reported that all 140 had been in Finnish hospitals. HS never claimed that.
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It did not claim otherwise, either.

Interior Minister Arike said 136 people had been rescued from the ship. He didn't want to give out the list of names because he wasn't sure it was right. However, there was a list of 149 rescued names on the wall of the port of Tallinn. According to Finnish authorities, 140 people were rescued from the ship. Tarmo Kõuts, head of the Estonian Border Guard, said that border guards do not need to monitor the identity of those who go on board
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HS 30.9.1994

Various articles also state that there were 10 persons rescued or bodies retrieved that were not on the passenger list.

If you look at the official tables on the Swedish Riksdag site you can see there are a total of 149 (104 Finland, 45 Sweden) which it explains away as people transferred from Finland to Sweden, yet such a patient would not be double counted as a survivor.

The distribution of rescued between different hospitals:
Country Hospital Number of patients
Finland University of Turku Central Hospital 38
Finland Åland Central Hospital, Mariehamn 8
Finland Hangö HVC 8
Finland Ekenäs district hospital 4
Finland Västra Åboland 4
Finland University of Helsinki Central Hospital 20
Finland Maria Hospital Helsinki 16
Finland Töölö Hospital Helsinki 6
Sweden Huddinge Hospital 14
Sweden Södersjukhuset 31
A number of the rescued who were taken to hospitals in Finland were later transferred to Sweden for further care.


In addition, if as early as 29.9.1994 Bengt Stenmark head of sea safety at the Swedish Maritime Administration was sacked - for contradicting the JAIC version of events even at that initial stage - then it follows that a quick decision had possibly been made to shall we say 'extradite' the senior crew at the request of the CIA as it would have been embarrassing to reveal what they knew or because they were suspected as interfering in US intelligence plans or being agents for Russia, or just to keep the whole thing classifed.

In that case, of course the 'official' figures would be downsized accordingly.

You do know that it is quite usual for online articles to be edited in retrospect, usually citing 'corrections'?

What would be needed are the first edition hard copy newspapers.
 
Vixen said:
Jutta Raab thought he had been taken to a US military zone in Germany.
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Before you moved the goalposts this concerned a rumour you introduced claiming he was taken to a German embassy. Now you appear to be addressing a different rumour entirely. The German embassies in Sweden and Finland are not US military zones.
 
Marras said:
So you don't have any evidence for that and only conspiratorial speculations.
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Reuters. Evening Standard. Swedish and Danish newspapers. Even Helsingin Sanomat quoting Stenmark - who was then unceremoniously sacked - stating Piht was alive and ready for interview whilst Andresson (who was never listed as a survivor) went down with his ship.

Elsewhere an early diver claimed to have seen Andresson's body with the appearance of a bullet to the head.


How come Andresson was never 'accidentally' listed as a survivor and indeed he is noted as dead from the outset?
 
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