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Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part V

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Vixen, you claimed that nuclear materials "were commonly intercepted at Finnish and Swedish Customs"

In response to being asked for a citation for that, you posted the following link:

https://irp.fas.org/cia/product/go_appendixa_032796.html

Which says exactly nothing about nuclear materials being intercepted at Finnish and Swedish Customs. Curiously, if I google "nuclear materials smuggling", that is the 3rd result, it's almost as if Vixen just frantically Googled something and posted a link without reading it in order to make it look as if she's got evidence for her claims.

Why did you post that link as evidence of nuclear material being commonly intercepted at Finnish and Swedish customs when it says absolutely no such thing?
 
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This is a link to known nuclear smuggling incidents:

https://www.atomicarchive.com/almanac/smuggling/index.html

Sweden and Finland are not on the list.

And I found this ponderous work on Ferry Disasters called:

Ferry Accidents, Their Causes, and How to Prevent Them

https://interferry.com/wp-content/u...l_Accidents_COMPLETE-for-printing_full_sm.pdf

421 pages of conspiracy-free reading if you're just really bored with the CT crap in this thread. Interesting facts such as an estimated 2.2 billion people uses ferries world-wide(based on data between 2000 and 2015), and only 36 ferries have sunk. The report explores how accident reporting is inconsistent world wide, and poor countries have more accidents.

So if you're super bored.
 
Vixen said:
Try the following: see for example, ”smugglers with radioactive Califonium 235 – arrested Germany and Finland – Nucleonics Week, 2 Sept 1993.

’28-kilogram lead container of Caesium-137 onto a ferry…’ Estonia Arrests Swedes who had Radioactive Material – Reuters 9 July 1993.
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Maybe my Google-fu is weak tonight, but I can't find any references online to either of those stories, no matter what terms I search for and I've tried all sorts of variations on them, but no news stories are coming up for me at all. Like I said, it might be poor searching on my behalf, so I'd like you to ante up with some more detailed reference for those stories, ideally with links online where we can check them out.

Bonus points to you if you respond to this post and actually answer the question that's being asked.

Where did you find those stories? Have you got any actual links that anyone can check those news stories?
 
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JesseCuster said:
Maybe my Google-fu is weak tonight, but I can't find any references online to either of those stories, no matter what terms I search for and I've tried all sorts of variations on them, but no news stories are coming up for me at all. Like I said, it might be poor searching on my behalf, so I'd like you to ante up with some more detailed reference for those stories, ideally with links online where we can check them out.

Bonus points to you if you respond to this post and actually answer the question that's being asked.

Where did you find those stories? Have you got any actual links that anyone can check those news stories?
Click to expand...

I would like to see some links or refs too please.
 
JesseCuster said:
Maybe my Google-fu is weak tonight, but I can't find any references online to either of those stories, no matter what terms I search for and I've tried all sorts of variations on them, but no news stories are coming up for me at all. Like I said, it might be poor searching on my behalf, so I'd like you to ante up with some more detailed reference for those stories, ideally with links online where we can check them out.

Bonus points to you if you respond to this post and actually answer the question that's being asked.
Where did you find those stories? Have you got any actual links that anyone can check those news stories?
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Don't be daft ;) For a start, Vixen appears to have cut+pasted those, but one contains a typo - it's Californium not Califonium. I'd wager heavily she made them up from her imagination. Either that or they came from a source that can't spell the name of an element.

eta: googling other key phrases such as "Estonia Arrests Swedes who had Radioactive Material" also draws blanks. I'd say there's nothing wrong with your fu. Apart from anything else, the random capitalisation of words suggests a semi-literate source at best.
 
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Vixen said:
...Try the following: see for example, ”smugglers with radioactive Califonium 235 – arrested Germany and Finland – Nucleonics Week, 2 Sept 1993.
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Nucleonics Week is a real publication, but it's archive is not searchable, certainly not for non-subscribers, at least.

Vixen said:
...’28-kilogram lead container of Caesium-137 onto a ferry…’ Estonia Arrests Swedes who had Radioactive Material – Reuters 9 July 1993.
Click to expand...

Reuters' archive is not searchable that far back, as they've not yet digitised it all. I did, however, find a link to a PDF from Nommeraadio.ee, whose Google precis reads:
" … parvlaevale 28-kilogrammise pliikonteineritäie tseesium-137-t …” “Estonia Arrests. Swedws Who Had Radioactive Material” [Eesti arreteerib radioaktiivset ... " (sic)

which Google translates as:

" … 28 kg lead-filled container of cesium-137 for the ferry…” "Estonia Arrests. Swedws Who Had Radioactive Material” [Estonia arrests radioactive material ... " (and again, sic)

Unfortunately, said PDF would not download for me (I don't know if the link was dead, my antivirus took a dislike to it, or what, but it was a no-go). I would also note that this link is dated September 1994, not July 1993.

I very much doubt Vixen is a subscriber to Nucleonics Week, or that she has access to an archive of Reuters material that only exists in physical form.

No, it is my belief (subject to proof otherwise) that these are citations Vixen has lifted from yet another of her... let's be kind, and say dubious sources.
 
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Vixen said:
Surely he is talking about 'an extensive Zionist criminal network', in the same way as someone talking about 'an extensive Mafia criminal network', or 'an extensive Mexican criminal drug cartel' is not a slur on all Jews, Italians/Albanians or Mexicans, just the organised criminal elements?
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As under 7 minutes of research would show you, Bollyn is a neo-Nazi buffoon who avoids self-identifying as such in polite company.
 
Vixen said:
Er, Russia, China, Iran, and Cuba do not have freedom of speech or integrity of its news agencies.
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Seriously, that's your excuse? That the governments of Russia, China, Iran, and Cuba won't allow their structural engineers to reveal information that would be extremely embarrassing and destabilizing to the United States? There aren't enough laughing dogs to do that one justice.

Vixen said:
I am not aware Bollyn put the word Holocaust in quotation marks . . .
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It was in the excerpt I posted from his book, which you apparently didn't bother to read carefully.

Vixen said:
. . . I am not the slightest bit interested in the guy or his ideological views. I would say that denying the Holocaust is a particularly cruel and offensive claim to make if that is what Bollyn is doing.
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The excerpt I posted from the ADL article about Bollyn, which you again apparently didn't bother to read carefully, describes his having attended Holocaust denial conferences.

So, to go along with Jay's much more comprehensive post on the subject, I renew one of the many questions you've repeatedly dodged. How is it that everything else Björkman and Bollyn say is extremely outrageous and offensive, yet what they say about the Estonia is completely reasonable and not a conspiracy theory?
 
junkshop said:
Nucleonics Week is a real publication, but it's archive is not searchable, certainly not for non-subscribers, at least.
Click to expand...

The headline's probably been mangled, too, since there's no such as Cf 235 . It's probably a story about Cf 252, if anything.
 
JesseCuster said:
Maybe my Google-fu is weak tonight, but I can't find any references online to either of those stories, no matter what terms I search for and I've tried all sorts of variations on them, but no news stories are coming up for me at all. Like I said, it might be poor searching on my behalf, so I'd like you to ante up with some more detailed reference for those stories, ideally with links online where we can check them out.

Bonus points to you if you respond to this post and actually answer the question that's being asked.
Where did you find those stories? Have you got any actual links that anyone can check those news stories?
Click to expand...


What colour Porsche would you like?
 
Marras said:
You claimed that Helsingin Sanomat reported that 140 survivors had been treated in Finnish hospitals.

They never did that.

They wrote that there was a total of 140 survivors. They didn't claim that all of them had been brought to Finnish hospitals.

And HS also reported that other sources give different figures. (That Heiki Arike had said there were 136 survivors and that there is a name list in Tallinn with 149 survivors, from https://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/art-2000003370653.html).

By the way, the list of survivors that was published in HS Friday 30 September is here: https://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/art-2000003370645.html

The article says that there are 140 survivors but that the identities of two were not known on Thursday when Turku police gave the list to media. The name list contains 138 names.

You can check whether you can find Piht or other senior officers of Estonia from that list.
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Of course Piht's name is not going to appear on the official list if he has been 'disappeared'.

The Hesari does not state that the 140 includes those survivors taken abroad, either.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
A said that B said that C said...

Are you perhaps now claiming that the London Evening Standard had secret agents embedded within the crew of the Estonia?

The repeating of rumours and speculation as they make their way through the international press does not get you closer to the truth, but further away.
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If something comes through Reuters then you know it is verified news.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Anyone with any sense would have been in a raft before the Mayday was made. The ship had lost power and was turned on it's side by then.
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That is not the point being made. The point is, the ship's engineers were battling with some kind of problem on Deck 0 in the Engine Control Room, yet there is no mention of it in their official statements or in the JAIC Report, despite Sillaste telling the Dagens Nyheter they had been 'up to their knees' in water in the ECR.

Nothing was to get in the way of the 'bow visor fell off' story.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Or the Attorney General being a member of the workers revolutionary party.
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I meant RCP being at the core of the Tory party as 'entrists', in the context of persons with hidden political agendas. I m not sure why you insisted in retrieving a sentence I deleted as needing correction. Perhaps explain why you think that is clever?
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Yes, the command team were woeful. They knew the ship already had water coming in the bow when it was rough, they should have shown a lot more concern.
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Not necessarily, if the engineers on Deck 0 failed to report the ingress of water to the bridge, that Sillaste told a newspaper had them 'up to their knees in water'.

If there was a sudden unexpected sabotage attack there probably wasn't much the bridge could do in that short space of ten minutes of awareness.
 
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