Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part V

[Marras]

Of course Piht's name is not going to appear on the official list if he has been 'disappeared'.

The Hesari does not state that the 140 includes those survivors taken abroad, either.

Oh, read more carefully.

"According to the status in the evening a total of 140 people were rescued during the day". https://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/art-2000003370243.html


"There were 776 passengers and 188 crew members. According to evening status 140 of them were rescued" https://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/art-2000003370242.html

"A total of 140 people survived" https://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/art-2000003370645.html

"140 people survived the sinking" https://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/art-2000003370616.html

"According to Finnish officials, 140 people were rescued from the ship" https://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/art-2000003370653.html

Whenever Helsingin Sanomat is using that figure 140, they are using it for the total number of survivors.

But this was yet another example of your diversions when you get caught lying about your sources.

You said that HS reported that all 140 had been in Finnish hospitals. HS never claimed that.

 

[Vixen]

How many of these alleged seven interviews have you read? How much of what you describe of them is your usual unreliable hyperbole? How do you know what he needed to do to get access to the locked car deck? Why should we accept your wild assumption that he decided the best thing to do was to tell the information desk to raise an alarm when there's no reason to believe that happened?

The fact is that if the bang he heard was indeed one of the locks breaking, it's no surprise that there wasn't water flooding the car deck at that point.

Linde's own mouth uttered the words. That is how we know.

 

[Vixen]

How do you know he was ever at Turku hospital?

Earlier you told us he probably travelled to Turku Hospital with the three prime ministers. So it seems you think all three countries are "in on it".

There is strong evidence that this was the case.

 

[Vixen]

And the CIA obviously; that's a given. Presumably the Israelis as they'd want to know what became of their super secret Soviet shopping list. And the Russians; they somehow know exactly what happened even if they're not in on it. And the British because they suspiciously went along with signing that agreement to leave the wreck undisturbed.

There's hardly anyone left who's not in on it.

Perhaps expand your consciousness as to how the real world operates.

 

[Vixen]

Let's look at that snipped again: "Captain Pihti has been questioned by the Estonia Crash Investigation Commission, Bengt Erik Stenmark, head of security at the Swedish Maritime Government, said on Friday. However, the investigatory panel on Friday disputed Stenmark's information."

(There may have been some autocorrect accident with Piht's name as "pihti" is a Finnish word).

So, according to that snippet Stenmark told that the commission had interrogated Piht. And the second sentence says that the commission themselves say that they have never done that.

In a longer context that article does not say that Piht is alive. Even the header reads: "There are many different versions of captain Piht's fate".

In summary, the first paragraph states that Swedish and Danish newspapers have reported on 30 September that Piht has vanished from a hospital in Helsinki and that they claim to have gotten the information from Helsinki Police. The official survivor lists don't have Piht so according to them he is dead.

Then comes the paragraph that Vixen quoted above.

The third paragraph states that Helsinki criminal police has talked to survivors that were brought to Helsinki on ships. Pauli Kokko from police states that he can't remember any Piht from the group but that they had time to talk only to about half of the approximately 40 survivors.

The fourth paragraph says that identifying the dead is a job of Turku police. The chief of the western area criminal police Kurt Alopaeus tells that the last reliable observation of Piht was round midnight before the accident on the bridge of Estonia.

In the final paragraph Alopaeus tells that they have tried to check all information about Piht but that they haven't been able to confirm that he is alive but that they can't be certain that he is dead.

I have quoted extracts from that article quite a few times. You do know it is against the rules to reproduce an entire article? In respecting copyright laws and fair use, you do need to stick to the relevant point you are making. The point being made by me at that time was that survivors had to be identified before they received hospital treatment, and thus I included a quote from HS quoting someone at TYKS describing that procedure. That particular article was about 1,000 words long so you are not being serious when you claim it should have been reproduced in full, when a link was given for people to read further if interested.

 

[Vixen]

And she still appears manifestly unable to figure out (far less accept) that a clamorous media, in the immediate aftermath of a disaster such as this - when all sorts of rumours and counter-rumours are swirling around, where fact and supposition get irredeemably intermingled, where media sources are vying with each other to get consumers' attention with the most "insightful" and sensational reportage - can and do make serious mistakes or misinterpretations.

This whole "It said XYZ in a Finnish newspaper the day after the disaster, so I'm entitled to use XYZ as a reliable datum point" schtick is way, way past its sell-by date now.

That is nonsense. In a disaster with just a handful of survivors, and as logged by the helicopter pilots, hospitals and other officials, what is the problem in getting the correct number of survivors, or explaining how come survivors originally listed were now removed?

 

[Vixen]

One thing that is almost impressive is the obsession with ferreting out from the thousands upon thousands of printed words these obscure little nuggets in order to misinterpret them.

Citation, please, of what you believe is 'misinterpreted'.

 

[Marras]

There is strong evidence that this was the case.

So you don't have any evidence for that and only conspiratorial speculations.

 

[Vixen]

The obvious poster-boy for media getting things stunningly wrong in a "fog of war" or "rushing to get the scoop" scenario is, of course, the "Dewey defeats Truman" headline in the Chicago Tribune re the 1948 US Pres Election result.

More recently: around an hour after the first aircraft hit the WTC on 9/11*, the on-air anchor for Sky News in the UK (which generally has a pretty decent reputation for reliability and moderate reporting/editorial) declared "The entire eastern seaboard of the United States is under attack".

And, closer to home (wrt this forum....), when Amanda Knox (and Sollecito) stunningly won their appeals in the Italian Supreme Court in 2015, someone at the ever-***** Daily Mail pressed the wrong button and uploaded to their website not only the polar opposite outcome (that their convictions had been upheld), but included wholly-invented details such as Knox breaking down and prosecutors expressing their satisfaction.


* 9/11 is a fairly useful comparator to the Estonia disaster in terms of the media dynamics, the confusing (and often contradictory) nature of information and rumour, and the mistakes/falsehoods/misinterpretations that were reported in the mainstream media in the immediately-ensuing days. I'm highly confident that were I a 9/11 conspiracy theorist, I could easily cobble together a patchwork of early-days media reports - including reports from respectable outlets - which could be used to contradict the subsequent findings of the official inquiry (including findings of fact) and to support my CT of choice...

Newspapers and broadcasters do have copy written in advance for expected major news items, for example, the approaching end of life for a monarch, or the expected outcome of a trial. They will be ready to go straight into print or an interminable 'news flash' with ready footage of the 'life & times', as with the recent death of the Duke of Edinburgh.

That is completely different to reporters on the scene of a developing incident.

 

[Vixen]

What was your source for the claim that the Swedish government disappeared the two Egyptians, and that this was confirmed to have happened by court decisions (you initially specified the ECHR)?

Sven Anér and Drew Wilson.

 

[Vixen]

Citing them as the source of claims you wish to repeat for your own benefit makes at least some of their views your views. That's the vital concept behind the practice of citing authority.

The argument is not that you quoted a noted anti-Semite on a point of alleged law and history, therefore you too must be an anti-Semite. The argument is that because his particular brand of anti-Semitism has little basis in fact, the other declarative statements he has made -- for which he is the only source -- are also suspect. And in this case, they are facially incorrect; we can determine for ourselves what laws Sweden broke in the case of the deported Egyptians.

The argument that you quoted a self-proclaimed naval architect on a point of physical law is more straightforward. Anders Björkman cannot demonstrate a competent knowledge of physics, including ships. That he takes that incompetence into deeply felt historical issues such as 9/11 is not the point.



It's not about "ideologies." It's about whether they are reliable reporters of fact. You're being presented with evidence that they are not. Trying to make all that seem irrelevant or uninteresting does not address the problem. You need to get past the straw man that your sources are being rejected for their "ideology." They're being rejected because they demonstrate to be distant from verifiable truth in exactly the way your argument requires them to be truthful.

By that criteria, I must be an ardent devotee of James Meek and Colin Anderson, and all of the HS news reporters, even though I have no idea of their political beliefs.

Here's the thing. Just because more than one person has a similar view about the cause of a disaster, be it Estonia or 9/11, it doesn't make them a granfalloon.

Bjorkman's physical assessment of the seaworthiness of Estonia and the mechanics and physics of how she could sink are perfectly sound. It doesn't mean I share his views on Hiroshima or 9/11 because I obviously do not.

I knew nothing about Bollyn, except that he quoted Aner, whose investigative journalism into the Estonia, I was already aware of and familiar with. There was nothing in his article that mentioned his radical right views on other topics.

 

[erwinl]

By that criteria, I must be an ardent devotee of James Meek and Colin Anderson, and all of the HS news reporters, even though I have no idea of their political beliefs.

Here's the thing. Just because more than one person has a similar view about the cause of a disaster, be it Estonia or 9/11, it doesn't make them a granfalloon.

Bjorkman's physical assessment of the seaworthiness of Estonia and the mechanics and physics of how she could sink are perfectly sound. It doesn't mean I share his views on Hiroshima or 9/11 because I obviously do not.

I knew nothing about Bollyn, except that he quoted Aner, whose investigative journalism into the Estonia, I was already aware of and familiar with. There was nothing in his article that mentioned his radical right views on other topics.

How do you know that?

 

[Vixen]

And confusing MV Lehti and MTV is on the level of confusing Epoch Times with BBC.

I know that now. Maybe explains why I had never heard of them and mistook them for MTV..

 

[Vixen]

Yeah, she also tried to claim that MV Lehti is an ordinary newspaper.

When you click on MV-Lehti, it does look like a standard newspaper, albeit tabloid in style.

 

[Vixen]

I think that was a sincere claim. Laughable, but sincerely intended.

Thank you.

 

[Vixen]

Vixen, you claimed that nuclear materials "were commonly intercepted at Finnish and Swedish Customs"

In response to being asked for a citation for that, you posted the following link:

https://irp.fas.org/cia/product/go_appendixa_032796.html

Which says exactly nothing about nuclear materials being intercepted at Finnish and Swedish Customs. Curiously, if I google "nuclear materials smuggling", that is the 3rd result, it's almost as if Vixen just frantically Googled something and posted a link without reading it in order to make it look as if she's got evidence for her claims.

Why did you post that link as evidence of nuclear material being commonly intercepted at Finnish and Swedish customs when it says absolutely no such thing?

It illustrates that smuggling heavy metals out of Russia Former Soviet Union (FSU) to the west was rife after its fall (although it didn't really fall, it was just the same old Russians cooked in butter). I provided a couple of news links about specific cases to Sweden and Finland, being the obvious neighbouring countries to transit them, given the ferry links, which had very little passport controls or passenger lists, although vehicles did have to show a registered driver and proof that you were it.

The fact that Finland (probably following Sweden) had brought into effect a new EU edict tightening the laws in transporting dangerous goods and chemicals (requiring a special VAKS licence) on 1 Sept 1994, provides an interesting possible motive for a smuggler wanting to get rid of a cargo of illegal materials should he or she be tipped off the customs were lying in wait at the other end ready to confiscate your goods worth €'000's on the markets and issue you with a jail term of ten years. Then the idea that a ruthless criminal would try to open the car ramp to get rid does not seem such a preposterous idea after all.

 

[Here_to_learn]

Sven Anér

Now, Sven Anér used to write in Swedish, so what word did he use to describe that Sweden "disappeared" people?

 

[Vixen]

Definitely worth reading.

No evidence, just an assumption of conspiracy. As usual.

Sometimes things are in plain sight.

Use your eyes.

The ancient Greeks (?) had a theory that 'seeing is believing'.

 

[Vixen]

Maybe my Google-fu is weak tonight, but I can't find any references online to either of those stories, no matter what terms I search for and I've tried all sorts of variations on them, but no news stories are coming up for me at all. Like I said, it might be poor searching on my behalf, so I'd like you to ante up with some more detailed reference for those stories, ideally with links online where we can check them out.

Bonus points to you if you respond to this post and actually answer the question that's being asked.

Where did you find those stories? Have you got any actual links that anyone can check those news stories?

Try a quick easy search of the thread as it was discussed before and also page 194 - 195 of Drew Wilson's book The Hole.

 

[Vixen]

Don't be daft For a start, Vixen appears to have cut+pasted those, but one contains a typo - it's Californium not Califonium. I'd wager heavily she made them up from her imagination. Either that or they came from a source that can't spell the name of an element.

eta: googling other key phrases such as "Estonia Arrests Swedes who had Radioactive Material" also draws blanks. I'd say there's nothing wrong with your fu. Apart from anything else, the random capitalisation of words suggests a semi-literate source at best.

Californium was my typo. Habit from schooldays capitalising the names of Periodic Table elements.

The others would be newspaper headline standards.