Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part V

[Andy_Ross]

C-S did post a video a few times of guys in an engine room running around like crazy with water jetting out all over the place. That is where the 'frantic' comes from.

That was not an engine room, that was a combat damage simulator showing flooding in to accommodation and control spaces through holes in a hull.
They were attempting to stop flooding by patching holes, bypassing pipes and shoring up bulkheads to stop the weight of water from collapsing them.
They were not operating 'bilge pumps'.

As noted, once a pump is turned on there is nothing else to do.

Also, because you have closed a watertight door doesn't mean the flooding has been controlled. Weight of water in a flooded compartment will collapse the bulkhead unless it is given additional support by shoring with timber and steel jacks.
Crews of ferries are not trained to do this and don't have the timber, tools or jacks to do it.

As I said IMV the persons responsible were determined the vessel's journey would terminate there and then. If you recall the abortive USS Cole terrorist attempt, with jihadist strapped to the gills in suicide vests and a boat loaded with 700kg of explosives: all they managed was a large hole in the side. Whoever brought down that ship, planned it meticulously, had know how to make dang sure it would sink, with no chance of rescue or evacuation.

People resist this idea because they think, no-one could be so wicked, so they comfort themselves that it was an accident because it feels better. But that does not replace the truth.

People resist the idea because it is stupid.

 

[Vixen]

So tell us what sonar has to do with the sinking.
What would a ferry use one for apart from when navigating a narrow channel when entering or leaving harbour for example?

MRCC scan the area constantly for ships in the region.

 

[Vixen]

Make your mind up. you just told us it was sabotage with explosives and ramming by a submarine.

Nuclear fuel rods? that's a new claim.

Nope. Decommissioning of Paldiski, a massive Soviet base in NW Estonia. Soveits kicked out in 1991. Massive black market, with Soviet military personnel not even getting their wages.

 

[Vixen]

Where is this evidence of explosive devices?

What evidence does this ex navy bloke have that we haven't seen?

Not the cardboard boxes again?

If they are still there to be seen how did they blow anything up?

See Rockwater video.

 

[Andy_Ross]

There were fifteen water-tight bulkheads on Deck 0.

All that was down there was the swimming pool, sauna, toilets and engine control room. All with sealed doors and gaskets. The ECR was alarmed for safety.

You missed the machinery space off your list. It is an extensive space, it is open over several decks in height and open from above via intakes, exhausts, ventilators and hatches.
How do you know the doors were sealed? Did all the compartments have doors connecting them?
If one compartment flooded, what would stop the weight of the water collapsing the bulkhead to the adjacent dry compartment or buckling the water tight hatch of it's seat?
Crews of warships have a large crew with extensive training in stopping flooding spreading through a ship, they have on every deck timber beams and sheets, hydraulic and mechanical jacks to try and shore up bulkheads and hatches to stop flooding.
Merchant ships have none of this..

Read the section of the HMS Nottingham report that deals with the steps taken to save the ship, it details how the flooding progressed through the ship and what had to be done to save it. There was no chance of anything like that on the Estonia or any other merchant ship even if the crew had acted promptly.

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/cy/r...ch/3/BOI Grounding of HMS NOTTINGHAM 2002.pdf

 

[Vixen]

They couldn't see it on the radar because it was a storm and the ship sank.

Storms reduce radar range dramatically. Rain reduces range, pitching of the ship and height of the waves produces a lot of clutter and a ship on it's side and low in the water will have a much reduces return.
They would be lucky to get more than a couple of miles range on a commercial navigation set in that era.
When it has sunk of course it will not be visible at all.

Their transmission was heard and replied to, we have a transcript of it. The ship lost power and turned on it's side, all they had to work with were hand held, low power radio sets, they were lucky to be heard at all. They should have put out a Pan message as soon as they felt there was something wrong and a Mayday much sooner while they still had some control of the situation and some power to the main set.

You do like brushing things under the carpet. That doesn't actually make them go away.

You have to confront these things. You have to lift up that carpet and sweep out the dirt hidden under there. Because out of sight is not out of mind.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Open-minded, that's me.

Bahahahahahahahaha.

Hahahahahahaha.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

You do like brushing things under the carpet. That doesn't actually make them go away.

You have to confront these things. You have to lift up that carpet and sweep out the dirt hidden under there. Because out of sight is not out of mind.

Bahahahahahahahaha.

Hahahahahahaha.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

 

[Andy_Ross]

MRCC scan the area constantly for ships in the region.

What has sonar got to do with that?

Do you know what sonar is and what it is used for?

 

[Andy_Ross]

Nope. Decommissioning of Paldiski, a massive Soviet base in NW Estonia. Soveits kicked out in 1991. Massive black market, with Soviet military personnel not even getting their wages.

But you are now saying that the Mafia had nuclear fuel rods aboard the Estonia!

Is that something you just invented since last week?

 

[Andy_Ross]

See Rockwater video.

I have. If your ex navy bloke is using the same video then where are the explosives?

IS it just the same claim that small rectangular shapes, some random wires and cardboard are evidence for demolition charges or whatever?

If they were supposed to have blown the bows off, why are they still there?

Pathetic.

 

[Andy_Ross]

You do like brushing things under the carpet. That doesn't actually make them go away.

You have to confront these things. You have to lift up that carpet and sweep out the dirt hidden under there. Because out of sight is not out of mind.

What is brushed under the carpet?

Have you ever actually used a navigation radar?

have you used one in a storm with the ship pitching?

What do you think you can see on a navigation radar from that era?

Or what do you think you can see on a modern navigation radar in those condition?

 

[Vixen]

I'm trying to cut back on my gif use, but I'd insert a Sherlock Holmes gif right here.

I'll splain it for you: If they're not on land, and not in a coffin, they're on the ship (or bottom of the sea).

Yes, it is that simple.




Why are the key details always trivial to you?

They ignored the report of water rushing into the car deck instead of deploying a damage-control party to inspect it. The morons just went with their indicator lights even though they could have sent someone down to the bow for a look.

The captain and crew failed basic seamanship, and sank the ship.



Obviously never took them seriously, and we have no idea how proficient they might have been because there was no alarm to man the lifeboats...because the command failed to react.



None of that happened.



Which means it was pretty bad, especially for the Estonia, which was not designed for open-ocean travel.

I'm sure there were a few pub fights in Dublin this past weekend which were no worse than any other pub brawl in January.



We did.

Explain why seven survivors were taken straight to Huddinge Hospital in Stockholm, contrary to OSC instructions?

Finnish hospitals, as reported by the Hesari, treated in all 140 survivors, this figure being brought down to 138 and then 137. It reported two rescued from Utö were in 'poor condition' and one was 'unconscious', so that might account for that.

The oldest person rescued in Turku was a man born in 1917, the youngest Norwegian boy aged 12. The Norwegian boy asked his father at the hospital, but no one knew what happened to him. The rescued sat before being sent to the wards for a few dozen minutes in the hallway of the emergency room. Among other things, they were asked for personal data before being transferred to departments.

HS Se oli taistelua elämästä" Sairaaloihin tuotiin alijäähtyneitä ja järkyttyneitä pelastuneita


Rimmi Riitta

29.9.1994 2:00

Note how the Finnish hospitals made sure it took the personal details of each patient. So 140 survivors in Finland (less one or two who subsequently died or 'disappeared') and seven at Huddginge.

= 147.

Please explain how can those eleven or twelve 'survivors' be listed as survivors by various hospitals but then be removed from the list?

 

[Vixen]

But you are now saying that the Mafia had nuclear fuel rods aboard the Estonia!

Is that something you just invented since last week?

Cobalt, Uranium-238, Caesium, heroin: all been mentioned before in connection with smuggling to the west.

 

[Vixen]

I have. If your ex navy bloke is using the same video then where are the explosives?

IS it just the same claim that small rectangular shapes, some random wires and cardboard are evidence for demolition charges or whatever?

If they were supposed to have blown the bows off, why are they still there?

Pathetic.

In a following clip, the items have mysteriously been removed.

Braidwood worked with explosives. He recognised a typical pack when he saw one. He took samples and had them independently tested by metallurgists.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Explain why seven survivors were taken straight to Huddinge Hospital in Stockholm, contrary to OSC instructions?

Finnish hospitals, as reported by the Hesari, treated in all 140 survivors, this figure being brought down to 138 and then 137. It reported two rescued from Utö were in 'poor condition' and one was 'unconscious', so that might account for that.

HS Se oli taistelua elämästä" Sairaaloihin tuotiin alijäähtyneitä ja järkyttyneitä pelastuneita


Rimmi Riitta

29.9.1994 2:00

Note how the Finnish hospitals made sure it took the personal details of each patient. So 140 survivors in Finland (less one or two who subsequently died or 'disappeared') and seven at Huddginge.

= 147.

Please explain how can those eleven or twelve 'survivors' be listed as survivors by various hospitals but then be removed from the list?

They were taken to the hospital on the route back to their base where they were returning for repair and crew change. It was the quickest way to turn them round and get them back in to service.
As explained the OSC has no control over Swedish or Finnish helicopters. It is a coordinating role of the actual scene only.
Each helicopter is under the control of the pilot who has his own chain of command.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Cobalt, Uranium-238, Caesium, heroin: all been mentioned before in connection with smuggling to the west.

Where did you get the information that the Estonia was carrying nuclear fuel rods?

 

[Andy_Ross]

In a following clip, the items have mysteriously been removed.

Braidwood worked with explosives. He recognised a typical pack when he saw one. He took samples and had them independently tested by metallurgists.

What does a 'typical pack' look like?
How did he take samples when he never dived on the wreck?

How would the explosives have blown the bow off when they were still there?

 

[Mojo]

There is no issue to avoid. As others have explained, the problem with your appeal to this example is that it is not on point.

You still haven't found any non-Bollyn sources for the claim that the Egyptians were subjected to enforced disappearance, have you? Bollyn remains your sole source for that claim, and you continue to believe him without corroboration.

That is nonsense. Bollyn was simply quoting well-known Swedish investigative journalist Sven Anér, who is the person who acquired the receipts from Arlanda Airport, Stockholm, of the US Cargo plane which carried away nine unknown unnamed passengers on 29.9.1994 iirc, or thereabouts, the same plane owners that carted off the two Egyptians at the beck and call of warfaring Dubya Bush.

Sven Anér is best known for his tireless investigative journalism into the assassination of Olof Palme.

You’ll be able to provide a link, or reference, for Sven Anér reporting that that Egyptians were disappeared by the Swedish government, then.

 

[JayUtah]

Margus Kurm state prosecutor for Estonia at the time believes it was a submarine. I think he knows better than you about what was going on.

I guarantee I know more about submarines than Margus Krum.