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Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part V

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Vixen said:
Amnesty International was following the story, for a start: https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/mde12/006/2002/en/
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The question is not whether people were following the story; we know they were even before the Egyptians were deported. The question is whether Sweden's actions in this matter constitute the crime of enforced disappearance as laid down in the 1998 Rome Statute, as you have claimed. Your source does not allow you to answer yes to that question. The actions your source attributes to Sweden were those for which a court found against Sweden, having nothing to do with enforced disappearance.

Still the only source for that claim is Bollyn, the source you initially cited to.

...before you dare try to make insinuations I agree with unsavoury views such as Bollyn's.
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Crocodile tears. You didn't find out anything about your source before you cited him as an authority. The fault is entirely yours.
 
Vixen said:
Amnesty International was following the story, for a start: https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/mde12/006/2002/en/
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You seem to be entirely missing the point: you're conflating "following the story" with "held the view that the men had been "disappeared" by Sweden".

We already know that this was a newsworthy story. But it was newsworthy because Sweden forcibly extradited the men to Egypt without following due process. NOT because Sweden "disappeared" the men.

Do you still not understand the difference between a) "disappearing" someone, and b) extraditing someone to another country without due process"? Seriously??



And yes, I was a subscriber for several years.
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How very admirable. And how utterly, utterly irrelevant.



I am also subscribed to Yad Vashem. I visited the Yad Vashem museum in Jerusalem, before you dare try to make insinuations I agree with unsavoury views such as Bollyn's.
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Well, I happen to know a fair bit about Yad Vashem. And as far as I'm aware, one cannot "subscribe" to it. One can donate to it. But not subscribe. I'm inclined to think that this is another, uhm, untruth from you Vixen.

And if you don't want to have questions asked about your affiliations and viewpoints in these sorts of matters..... perhaps you should even a teensy-weensy bit of your world-famous "research" to understand the worldview of people whom you adopt as credible, reliable sources? I mean, that's what I would - and do - do, Vixen. It appears you take a rather more cavalier approach to the matter (in keeping with your cavalier approach to truth and honesty in debating).
 
JayUtah said:
I assume you mean Rockwater said this. If not, who was saying this? I'd like to read their engineering analysis and cost estimation. Can you provide it?
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This was dealt with at the start. It was a Norwegain specialist company which was in Turku at the time. It offered to do the job at a not-for-profit basis. It would have been circa SEK2m. Swedish government said, no.
 
Vixen said:
See here, on the official Swedish web page about the disaster.

https://sok.riksarkivet.se/estonia?infosida=helikopterinsatser

Svensson was officially with team Helicopter Y64 (this is Svensson's official team). The official figure for Helicopter Y64 is 'one'.

Here is a list of the teams:

https://sok.riksarkivet.se/bildvisning/ES002173_00023#?c=&m=&s=&cv=22&xywh=-1726,-619,5971,3308

So, you see, it is official.
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Yup. You still cannot work out how it is possible for anyone to leave one helicopter for another.

Seriously, Vixen. Is it beyond your understanding that people can walk?
 
Vixen said:
This was dealt with at the start. It was a Norwegain specialist company which was in Turku at the time. It offered to do the job at a not-for-profit basis. It would have been circa SEK2m. Swedish government said, no.
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You think it would have cost 2 million to raise the ship?

It would cost something like that just to charter a saturation diving ship for a few weeks.
 
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Vixen said:
If you do not know how disinformation works, I cannot help you. If you didn't follow Ray Hill's exploits at the time, it is no use my explaining it now.
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I do know how the disinformation that actually exists works. I asked for a very specific thing which you claimed. You've still not provided any examples from the real world.

As for Hill, I do know about him. I know for instance that he never infiltrated Combat 18 and that you were lying about that, as well as lying about Combat 18 being founded by MI5.
 
JesseCuster said:
Ah yes, here's the actual quote from Vixen:


So there you go, he accepted the award under false pretences. He accepted it for one reason that was given in public, but it was actually given to him for another reason that was secret (secreting away the officers of the Estonia), according to Vixen.
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Doing something classified, or 'in the national interest' is hardly false pretences.
 
Vixen said:
I'll tell you why: because 'disappeared' is slang, whereas Amnesty International is using official language.
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Nope. Disappeared is official language. Enforced disappearance is an officially recognised term. You've been told this. Why do you continue to lie?
 
LondonJohn said:
You seem to be entirely missing the point: you're conflating "following the story" with "held the view that the men had been "disappeared" by Sweden".

We already know that this was a newsworthy story. But it was newsworthy because Sweden forcibly extradited the men to Egypt without following due process. NOT because Sweden "disappeared" the men.

Do you still not understand the difference between a) "disappearing" someone, and b) extraditing someone to another country without due process"? Seriously??






How very admirable. And how utterly, utterly irrelevant.






Well, I happen to know a fair bit about Yad Vashem. And as far as I'm aware, one cannot "subscribe" to it. One can donate to it. But not subscribe. I'm inclined to think that this is another, uhm, untruth from you Vixen.

And if you don't want to have questions asked about your affiliations and viewpoints in these sorts of matters..... perhaps you should even a teensy-weensy bit of your world-famous "research" to understand the worldview of people whom you adopt as credible, reliable sources? I mean, that's what I would - and do - do, Vixen. It appears you take a rather more cavalier approach to the matter (in keeping with your cavalier approach to truth and honesty in debating).
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Just because you use euphemisms doesn't change the fact.

You obviously do not know as much as you claim:

You can subscribe.

Update from Yad Vashem – Stay Connected
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newsletter@yadvashem.org.il <newsletter@yadvas

Yad Vashem | Har Hazikaron | P.O.B. 3477 | Jerusalem | 9103401 | Israel | 97226443555
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That's a newsletter. You're subscribed to a newsletter.

By that logic I'm subscribed to Dr Burnorium's Hot Sauce Emporium because I get a monthly newsletter from them, even though it isn't a subscription service.
 
Vixen said:
Aftonbladet says Svensson saved eight persons when he left the base just after 0200.

The fact he got a medial is not necessarily the reason quoted in the newspaper or in JAIC.

JAIC does not say he got a medal for the 0600-0700 rescue.
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Svensson left the base at 04:45 aboard Y 64

MRCC Turku started alerting rescue units at 01:26 hrs. One standby helicopter was alerted at 01:35 hrs, another at 02:18 hrs, and the military helicopters at 02:52 hrs.
Assistance by Swedish helicopters was agreed at 01:58 hrs.
The first Finnish helicopter arrived at 03:05 hrs.

Swedish helicopter could not have left the base at 02:00 as Swedish assistance wasn't even agreed until almost 2.
Y 64 was not a standby helicopter, it was not ready and the crew were not on the base.
 
abaddon said:
Yup. You still cannot work out how it is possible for anyone to leave one helicopter for another.

Seriously, Vixen. Is it beyond your understanding that people can walk?
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That is not how survivors and the dead were counted.

It was not a competition amongst the individual rescue men.
 
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