Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

[MarkCorrigan]

So how come the courts found against Sweden. In addition, Sweden also eventually granted residence and nationality to one of them.

<fx Gets into listening pose>

Because Sweden had deported them to a place where they were tortured.

Sweden deported them to a country known to torture prisoners and surprise surprise, despite Egypt pinkie promising not to do it they did it anyway.

You're not meant to deport people to a country where their human rights will not be respected.

Also, why are you putting a special effect notification from screenwriting to indicate that you're changing position?

ETA: If the UK were to deport Abu Hamza to Egypt, even if it got all it's ducks in a row regarding how he was deported and Egypt tortured him, the UK would be found liable because the UK deported him to a place where he would be tortured. It's really simple. That you are not grasping it is astonishing considering your claim to have gone to university. Unless of course this is all a performance piece, either to wind people up for your own amusement or to soothe your fragile ego.

 

[whoanellie]

9/11 might have been the first time the USA experienced terrorism.

Unbelievable.
9/11/2001 wasn't even the 1st time terrorists attacked the World Trade Center.

 

[junkshop]

....<fx Gets into listening pose>

Vixen, it has been shown that you have not the faintest frigging idea how to use the conventions of scriptwriting or stage direction. That you continue to attempt to do so without taking on board (or maybe in reaction to) the criticism you have previously received only serves to make you appear arrogant, inept, and pig-headed in the face of other poster's demonstrably superior expertise.

It does not make you look clever, or witty.

It makes you look like a twat. I assume that that is not your intent, so may I suggest that it is an affectation worth dropping?

 

[Andy_Ross]

It is all there in his report. The wording was, 'evidence of explosive residues'.

Where did he find them? He never dived on the wreck.

 

[Andy_Ross]

It is just pure gaslighting to pretend not to understand what disappearing means.

It seems you don’t.The two men in question were sent to Egypt.
Your link doesn’t mention disappearing.

 

[Andy_Ross]

So how come the courts found against Sweden. In addition, Sweden also eventually granted residence and nationality to one of them.

<fx Gets into listening pose>

What was ‘found against Sweden’?
How could they grant residency to someone that had disappeared?

 

[abaddon]

What is outstandingly brave and gallant about transferring from one winch to another?

According to your posts, it would be fundamentally impossible to do it. If you now want to wind back that claim, that's fine.

 

[LondonJohn]

Projecting again?

Uhmmm no, not projecting. And not "again".

 

[LondonJohn]

What a very stupid comment. All that needs to be done is rescue them first, identify later.

So they'd have been in a helicopter with other survivors, taken to shore, then separated from the other survivors and "dealt with"?

Can't you see how ridiculous all of this is? It couldn't have happened, and it didn't happen. End of.

 

[LondonJohn]

It is a sad world when people think it is normal to disappear people.

Sweden didn't "disappear" those people.

 

[LondonJohn]

Ahmed Hussein Mustafa Kamil Agiza v. Sweden, CAT/C/34/D/233/2003, UN Committee Against Torture (CAT), 24 May 2005, available at



UNHCR


Mohammed Alzery v. Sweden, Communication No. 1416/2005, U.N. Doc. CCPR/C/88/D/1416/2005 (2006).


ECHR
Human Rights Library


wiki

Oh good grief. You have no idea what you're talking about here.

But let me try to spell it out for you:

Firstly, these ECHR findings against Sweden were not about the treatment Sweden itself meted out to these two Egyptians. They related solely to the fact that Sweden returned these men to Egypt, knowing there was a reasonable probability that Egypt would torture them.

And secondly, these ECHR findings have nothing whatsoever to do with anyone "disappearing" these men.

Once again you've posted evidence which flatly contradicts your own claim, and once again you're not even able to understand that this is the case.

 

[LondonJohn]

What is outstandingly brave and gallant about transferring from one winch to another?

Because, having been immersed in Baltic Sea water for some time before being winched back up to another helicopter, he opted to keep operating as a rescue man rather than returning to shore.

I assume you've never been dumped into the Baltic Sea in a storm at night. Because if you had been, you'd know that it's extremely cold water and extremely unpleasant to be in. Even in a survival suit (and I'm far from certain that Svensson was even wearing a survival suit or immersion suit), one's body temperature drops fast when immersed in very cold water.

 

[LondonJohn]

It is just pure gaslighting to pretend not to understand what disappearing means.

Well firstly, you obviously don't understand what the term "gaslighting" actually means.

But that aside... the only person here who is "pretend(ing) not to understand what disappearing means" is you, Vixen. Because the definition of "disappearing" does not apply to what Sweden did to those two Egyptians. Sweden deported those men. Sweden did not disappear those men.

 

[Mojo]

Ahmed Hussein Mustafa Kamil Agiza v. Sweden, CAT/C/34/D/233/2003, UN Committee Against Torture (CAT), 24 May 2005, available at

Not the ECHR, and didn’t find that they had been disappeared.

UNHCR

Same link again.

Mohammed Alzery v. Sweden, Communication No. 1416/2005, U.N. Doc. CCPR/C/88/D/1416/2005 (2006).


ECHR
Human Rights Library

Not the ECHR, and didn’t find that they were disappeared.

 

[Mojo]

So how come the courts found against Sweden. In addition, Sweden also eventually granted residence and nationality to one of them.

<fx Gets into listening pose>

Do these “<fx>” include a sound that goes “LALALALA”?

 

[Here_to_learn]

B Even in a survival suit (and I'm far from certain that Svensson was even wearing a survival suit or immersion suit), one's body temperature drops fast when immersed in very cold water.

He was wearing a dry-suit.

From https://www.dn.se/arkiv/inrikes/radslans-ogonblick-gar-igen-i-drommen/ (paywall)

På vägen ut i helikoptern tänkte jag mest på om jag skulle ta på mig våtdräkt eller torr-dräkt. Våtdräkten är smidig när man jobbar i vatten, torrdräkten är varmare men mer otymplig. Jag valde torrdräkten, som tur var.

My translation: On the way out in the helicopter, I mostly thought about whether I should wear a wetsuit or a dry suit. The wetsuit is flexible when working in water, the dry suit is warmer but more awkward. I chose the dry suit, which was lucky.

It's a long interview with him, starting with when he was woken up by a phone call when asleep in his home at 01:50.

It tells the story about when first the wire breaks, and later the winch. When the survivor fell out of the rescue sling and he jumped after him:

Till sist åkte han ur och jag fick tag om hans handleder. Jag höll fast för allt vad jag var värd, men han var hal av vattnet. Jag såg honom falla. Det var kanske tio meter ned till vattenytan.

När mannen försvunnit lättade tyngden och besättningen kunde dra ombord mig. Där satt jag på kanten vid helikopteröppningen och såg mannen kämpa i vågorna. Han försvann allt längre ifrån oss.

Jag ville verkligen inte, tvekade kanske i en halv minut, men så kastade jag mig ändå efter honom. Utan lina.

My translation: Eventually he fell and I grabbed his wrists. I held on to everything I was worth, but he was slippery from the water. I saw him fall. It was maybe ten meters down to the water surface.

When the man disappeared, the weight eased and the crew was able to pull me on board. There I sat on the edge at the helicopter opening and saw the man fighting in the waves. He disappeared further and further away from us.

I really did not want to, maybe hesitated for half a minute, but then I threw myself after him anyway. Without line.

Sista gången kom jag för långt från livbåten. Helikoptern försökte dra mig närmare men stannade inte i tid och jag dunkade huvudet i båten. Förmodligen tuppade jag av några sekunder. Nästa minne är att jag låg 20 meter på andra sidan livbåten. Jag hade ont i knät, det visade sig senare att jag fått en spricka i knäskålen. Med hjälp av helikoptern lyckades jag dra mig fram och ta upp den siste mannen på flotten.

My translation: The last rescue I came too far from the lifeboat. The helicopter tried to pull me closer but did not stop in time and I banged my head on the boat. I probably unconscious for a few seconds. The next memory is that I was lying 20 meters on the other side of the lifeboat. I had a sore knee, it turned out later that I got a crack in the kneecap. With the help of the helicopter, I managed to pull myself forward and pick up the last man on the raft.

 

[Axxman300]

9/11 might have been the first time the USA experienced terrorism. In London we had the IRA bombing campaigns since the 70's. And they were fond of semtex, something that may well have been used on the Estonia, according to the report by Brian Braidwood, who says he found evidence of explosives residues and a particular petalling deformation nearby the forward bulkhead. Likewise, more recently, Ida Westermann, who took samples from the bow visor itself and found deformations that could be compatible with extreme conditions.

*Checks map*

Sweden is not in England.

Braidwood is wrong.

 

[Axxman300]

I think the claim is the Swedes gave them to the CIA because they are US puppets or something.

It's not like the US and Sweden don't share similar concerns about security.

 

[Axxman300]

I take it you have seen the controversy surrounding the assassination of Olof Palme?

You'll find the assassination squads after WWII were based on ruthless revenge, understandably, by Jewish groups, and the Russian ones are ruthless revenge for spies who have defected or turned double agent.

That is not the same as 'failing to follow proper due process', i.e, via public courts.

In other words, you don't know anything about assassination as an instrument of statecraft on any real-world level, only the CT versions.

You're the one spinning tall tales about Estonia crew being kidnapped and executed by the Swedish government without offering proof that Sweden has ever assassinated anybody since the end of WWII, nor have you explained why these surviving crew members required that kind of treatment in the first place.

All you've done is paint yourself into a series of corners to the point where you can't keep your stories straight. You are really bad at this.

 

[Mojo]

Oh good grief. You have no idea what you're talking about here.

But let me try to spell it out for you:

Firstly, these ECHR findings against Sweden were not about the treatment Sweden itself meted out to these two Egyptians. They related solely to the fact that Sweden returned these men to Egypt, knowing there was a reasonable probability that Egypt would torture them.

And secondly, these ECHR findings have nothing whatsoever to do with anyone "disappearing" these men.

And thirdly, they aren’t ECHR findings, even if Vixen did put “ECHR” in the anchor text for one of the links.