The supernatural

[heydarian saeed]

A new years message from me by Steven Hawking

The laws of nature form a system which is extremely fine-tuned, and very little can be altered without destroying the possibility of the development of life as we know it. Were it not for a series of startling coincidences in the precise details of physical law, it seems, humans and similar life forms would never have come into being. .. our Universe and its laws appear to have a design that is both tailor- made to support us and, if we are to exist, leaves little room for alteration. That is not easy to explain, and raises the natural question of why it is that way.
Steven Hawking and Mlodinow 2012

Hello. Happy new year to you too. You have not been for a while. We miss you. You left a very beautiful message. Thanks.

 

[heydarian saeed]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grand_Design_(book)

Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing. Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist. It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the universe going.

— Stephen Hawking and Leonard Mlodinow, The Grand Design, 2010[10]

Hello. You know that is not the case. But you are not sure. This issue is still one of the great unknowns. Scientists are looking for the answer. The great challenge of science is this: everything is changing. Heisenberg's uncertainty principle is a good theory.

 

[heydarian saeed]

In my opinion anyone who is prepared to perform the kind of tortured "logic" necessary to convince themselves that there are references to recent scientific discoveries in the Qu'ran meets the criteria for religious fanaticism. As long as you persist in making such manifestly absurd claims, heydarian, whilst disregarding or hand waving away every rebuttal, I will consider you a religious fanatic. I'm sorry, but there it is.

Hello. I fully respect your words. You are the first to answer me in this group. And you guided me. So it's valuable to me. And I will never forget you.

 

[heydarian saeed]

For some years I was a moderator at a now defunct forum for atheists, and have a lot of experience debating believers there. I have never seen any of them facing up to anything. The most you can hope for is that they leave the thread without comment. Muslims tended to be somewhat more ridiculous in their claims, which is probably because they often lived in a bubble where their views were never challenged. Christians have issues with schools and society that constantly challenge their tenets.


Heydarian’s attempts to shoe-horn science into an old nomadic text is of course a joke, but our attempts to fix his attention to this is watered out by our own Gish Gallop by people who want to probe his views on lots of things, most of them religious, and far from his opening post. How did his laughable claims of science in the Quran transform into whether he would want to kill us? I think this development made it easier in his mind to ignore the scientific issues, and get on with the preaching.


I agree. Heydarian is even more dishonest than most. I wonder if he is not actually aware of it himself.


I have never heard of such a show. Sounds fun - the first time, anyway.


I disagree completely. People here are probably right that heydarian is a fanatic, but he does avoid every aspect of bloodshed - as does the huge majority of Christian fanatics who never become murderous.

On the other hand, the Quran is famous for exhorting the believers to lie to unbelievers, so he may well present a more benign side to us.


This logic leads to condemnation of all Muslims no matter what their view is because everyone can change their mind and become murderers. The fact that this happens for a vanishing fraction of Muslims can in my opinion not damn the vast majority. A single terrorist can of course cause terrible slaughter, and that leads to the fear that every Muslims could do the same.


On of my friends is in fact a fanatic Muslim in the same sense as heydarian, but he is not living up to Islamic standards in any other way. He is clean-shaven, and also has the belief that Islam is a religion of peace, in the same vein that most Christians think that peace is a particular condition invented by Christ. Like heydarian he also believes that the Quran is in complete accordance with modern science, but unlike heydarian he makes no attempt to convert anybody. He can’t understand the Danes (who are atheists in varying degrees), but he thinks that I am misreading the Quran if quote something that makes him uncomfortable. He thinks that I am cherry picking, and that reading the Quran or the Bible also is dependent on having the right view from the start. He is probably right about this.

When a Muslim terrorist attack happens somewhere, he takes at as a personal attack on himself, and thinks that the terrorist have no idea of what the Quran tries to tell us. I refuse to believe that he will ever become a terrorist.

P.S. I often wonder if heydarian is able to follow the debate in any meaningful way. His reliance on Google Translate surely makes him miss most points, and he certainly has no idea why we often speak of cherry picking in a non-agricultural connection. This could also explain why he ignores most arguments.

Hello.
-Thank you for reviewing me. I hear your criticism. Although I do not accept all your criticisms. But it is valuable to me. And I respect that. I suggest that: Review the claims of the Qur'an. The Quran is unknown. I'm here with you. And my appearance and my interior are one. In these few months that I have been with you, I think you have known me. Although everyone gives me a special label. No matter. I love you all.
-My Einstein bubble has been broken for years. Love for all human beings on earth broke it. You do not know how much I love human beings with all my being. All my beliefs are influenced by this feeling of friendship with all human beings.
-I am very prejudiced about this: the two words "enmity" and "war" are not defined for me. They do not exist in me. From the beginning to the end of my life, these two words have no color. And I do not see at all. And with all my being I "hate" these two words.
-I do not have enough knowledge about your critique of Islamic societies to respond to your critique. But I think this issue has been criticized in the Qur'an. And it has content. Please
See verse 14 of Sura 42:
-And (religious communities throughout history) did not become sects and groups, except after knowledge and awareness (in the unknown) came to them. The cause (disagreement) was pride and jealousy among themselves. And if there had not been a command from the Lord by a specific time, there would have been a ruling between them. (But God gave them time to discover the secret of the unknown through scientific research and study)
And certainly those who inherited the Book after them. (And they did not do scientific research. And they did not discover the secret of the unknown. And they remained in their own illiteracy.) They are hard in doubt about it (the Qur'an). And they act like the past. (And their ancient thoughts remain. And have not changed.)

 

[heydarian saeed]

I agree, as far as I can tell he seems harmless, just obstinate. "A guy who can’t change his mind and won’t change the subject", as one popular definition of fanatic puts it.


Especially, as you say, with the additional problem of the language barrier.

you said: I am obstinate. This is a characteristic of all men. In my private life, sometimes my wife gives me such a reminder. I will not continue immediately. And I give him a kiss. And my stubbornness ends. My stubbornness is defined in terms of my beliefs. In the initial messages of this group, I said if you have not forgotten:
I stand on my beliefs like a mountain Until proven otherwise to me. And I will not leave. Please all of you listen to me: "References to scientific points can be seen in the Qur'an and in the text of the Qur'an. And it can not be denied. If it has not been worked on in terms of objective and laboratory evidence. And a scientific article has not been given, This is a problem for us Muslims, not for the Qur'an. Also, the lack of scientific articles in this field is not a sufficient reason to reject scientific theories in the Qur'an." I have said this many times in this group. The opposite has not been proven to me yet.
I have told you many examples of quantum science in the Qur'an. Although a scientific paper based on objective evidence has not yet been prepared. And has not been scientifically proven. But this is not a reason to deny this claim of the Qur'an.

 

[heydarian saeed]

OK, ... well your above replies sound like you are finally getting close to the realisation that claims of scientific revelations in the Koran, simply cannot be sustained when the people making those claims (and there are very many Muslims who make such claims) cannot produce honest genuine evidence sufficient to be published in any genuine science research journal ...

... that tells you straight away that the claims are false. And it's the same story for all sorts of Christian claims and beliefs. It's the same again for all manner of non-religious claims from people like mystics and clairvoyants and claims of ghosts and ufo's etc. Because if there really was any evidence at all for any of those claims and beliefs, then scientists all over the world would jump on that immediately and you'd find the science journals absolutely packed with papers showing the evidence for any of that ... for the Islamic claims of science in the Koran it would be the most fantastic scientific discovery ever in the history of all mankind, and scientists would absolutely love to find something as amazing and as important as that ... but, it's simply NOT TRUE lol! ... there are simply no genuine scientific papers claiming even in the most microscopic hint of any such evidence of God giving evidence of modern science in the Koran ...

... the conclusion is obvious and inescapable - the Muslim claims of science in the Koran are simply untrue religious nonsense. And unfortunately, many Muslims, such as yourself, have been fooled by the people within your religion who originally made all of those claims.

Hello. We are all deceived. be sure. "Matter" is deceptive. The universe is all matter. And it is deceptive. I like it too. Because I am from matter. Therefore, our deception of matter is completely natural. The main deception is to stick to it. And do not make any changes.
Please all of you listen to me: "References to scientific points can be seen in the Qur'an and in the text of the Qur'an. And it can not be denied. If it has not been worked on in terms of objective and laboratory evidence. And a scientific article has not been given, This is a problem for us Muslims, not for the Qur'an. Also, the lack of scientific articles in this field is not a sufficient reason to reject scientific theories in the Qur'an." I have said this many times in this group. The opposite has not been proven to me yet.

let's move on...... you finally found a job for me to come and be with you. To work. And live. You will not be harmed. I will help you honestly and seriously in your work. Be sure.

 

[IanS]

Hello. We are all deceived. be sure. "Matter" is deceptive. The universe is all matter. And it is deceptive. I like it too. Because I am from matter. Therefore, our deception of matter is completely natural. The main deception is to stick to it. And do not make any changes.
Please all of you listen to me: "References to scientific points can be seen in the Qur'an and in the text of the Qur'an. And it can not be denied. If it has not been worked on in terms of objective and laboratory evidence. And a scientific article has not been given, This is a problem for us Muslims, not for the Qur'an. Also, the lack of scientific articles in this field is not a sufficient reason to reject scientific theories in the Qur'an." I have said this many times in this group. The opposite has not been proven to me yet.

let's move on...... you finally found a job for me to come and be with you. To work. And live. You will not be harmed. I will help you honestly and seriously in your work. Be sure.

The lack of any real science reserach papers claiming to show that the Koran contains references to modern science, not only IS denial of all that you say, it is in fact absolute "Proof" that Islamic claims of such miracles in the Koran are untrue. If it were ever true, then the science journals would be filled with tens of thousands of papers on it!

The simple underniable fact of this matter is that science shows that you are wrong. And that is the end of the argument.

 

[Pixel42]

you said: I am stubborn. This is a characteristic of all men. In my private life, sometimes my wife gives me such a reminder. I will not continue immediately. And I give him a kiss. And my stubbornness ends. My stubbornness is defined in terms of my beliefs. In the initial messages of this group, I said if you have not forgotten:
I stand on my beliefs like a mountain Until proven otherwise to me. And I will not leave. Please all of you listen to me: "References to scientific points can be seen in the Qur'an and in the text of the Qur'an. And it can not be denied. If it has not been worked on in terms of objective and laboratory evidence. And a scientific article has not been given, This is a problem for us Muslims, not for the Qur'an. Also, the lack of scientific articles in this field is not a sufficient reason to reject scientific theories in the Qur'an." I have said this many times in this group. The opposite has not been proven to me yet.
I have told you many examples of quantum science in the Qur'an. Although a scientific paper based on objective evidence has not yet been prepared. And has not been scientifically proven. But this is not a reason to deny this claim of the Qur'an.

You have made the best case you can in support of your claim that the Qu'ran contains references to modern scientific discoveries. Others have made a much, much better case that the Qu'ran contains nothing but ignorance and superstition. Your claim is therefore, rightly, rejected. The fact that you stubbornly refuse to accept this does not stop it being true.

 

[heydarian saeed]

Then why did you post that quote? Did you post it in defence of atheism?

Everything in the world is carefully tuned. But there is a range of changes. That is, it can change. You bring these two issues together. They are not separate. Of course, this range of change is also limited. And both issues indicate the existence of a capable and scientific management. Who has complete control over the universe. This is completely scientific. Scientists are trying to figure out what force is doing this in the universe. And this is still unknown.
Quantum science has made remarkable and good achievements in this regard. And it makes We are proud.

 

[Warp12]

Heydarian, there are 59 pages of you presenting your opinion on these matters, and being consistently rebuked by mostly the same people. Might I ask why you continue with this pointless cause? You are clearly not changing anyone's mind, and they are not going to change yours. The psychology on both sides is the most interesting aspect of this thread, by far.

 

[heydarian saeed]

The lack of any real science reserach papers claiming to show that the Koran contains references to modern science, not only IS denial of all that you say, it as in fact absolute "Proof" that Islamic claims of such miracles in the Koran are untrue. If it were ever true, then the science journals would be filled with tens of thousands of papers on it!

The simple underniable fact of this matter is that science shows that you are wrong. And that is the end of the argument.

Hello. Let me put this another way. Note: "There are scientific references in the Qur'an. This was said in the Qur'an 14 centuries ago. If in doubt, please seek help from those who are fluent in Arabic and the Qur'an. To translate the scientific verses of the Qur'an for you. To make sure that it is said in the Qur'an, but that it is not presented as a scientific article in the world. Only in this case you are right. We have not presented a universal scientific article, but this reason does not reject the scientific points of the Qur'an. It can not be discussed more clearly and logically." Please review all aspects of the case. Not just not having a scientific article for the Quran. The problem of Muslims is unfortunately.
Not from the Quran. The Qur'anic contents are complete. There is an objective existence. There is no denying it. Can you deny the matter? The Qur'an is all about matter. It only talks about matter. And whatever belongs to matter. And serves matter. God is also in the material world. It is not our job to seek God beyond matter. No. It does not make sense at all. God must be followed in the material world. And with matter cognition. This is what God says. This is what is in the Qur'an. Isn't this talk of realism? I am not a superstitious person. I have to find God in the material world. And I have found. Not in heaven and beyond the material for me. My "soul" is in All the cells of my body - genome. It is in me. In my material body. I will not look for it outside of this. This is it. In the material world.
This is not a sermon. It is my ideas that are close to yours.

 

[heydarian saeed]

Heydarian, there are 59 pages of you presenting your opinion on these matters, and being consistently rebuked by mostly the same people. Might I ask why you continue with this pointless cause? You are clearly not changing anyone's mind, and they are not going to change yours. The psychology on both sides is the most interesting aspect of this thread, by far.

Hi dear friend. welcome. You are right. I believe that we move in two parallel worlds. We are together. We have nothing to do with each other. We just comment. And we do not interfere with each other. That seems to be a good approach. Is not that so?

 

[Warp12]

Hi dear friend. welcome. You are right. I believe that we move in two parallel worlds. We are together. We have nothing to do with each other. We just comment. And we do not interfere with each other. That seems to be a good approach. Is not that so?

Well, if you find it satisfying, I guess that is what matters. But, the only outcome seems to be never-ending argument without resolution. And I find it fascinating that people wish to engage in such impotent endeavors.

 

[heydarian saeed]

You have made the best case you can in support of your claim that the Qu'ran contains references to modern scientific discoveries. Others have made a much, much better case that the Qu'ran contains nothing but ignorance and superstition. Your claim is therefore, rightly, rejected. The fact that you stubbornly refuse to accept this does not stop it being true.

Are better examples that you say others have given about scientific matters in the Qur'an? Please give these better examples here. Let me check it out. Thanks

 

[heydarian saeed]

Well, if you find it satisfying, I guess that is what matters. But, the only outcome seems to be never-ending argument without resolution. And I find it fascinating that people wish to engage in such impotent endeavors.

You are right. Of course, people have the right to come to this debate or not. Thanks

 

[IanS]

Everything in the world is carefully tuned. .

You actually do not know if things are "tuned" ... by saying "tuned" you are delieberatly using a word that implies a person or intelligent being who has deliberately "tuned" things or made sure that things are exactly as we have now measured them to be ...

... you are just copying the typical old Christian claim that says God must exist because the universe is "fine tuned for human life".

But the universe is certainly NOT "tuned" for human life ... except on any rare planets such as our planet, 99.9999999% of the universe would be (or actually IS) instantly deadly to any human life! So that is the exact opposite of it being finely tuned for our life.

As far as the actual values of those particular parameters are concerned - AFAIK, there is no reason to think that the values could be any different. AFAIK, the values that exist for things like the charge on an electron or the value of the Strong Nuclear Force or most particularly the so-called Cosmological Constant (famously from Einstein), are simply a consequence of what happened in the process of the Big Bang … IOW, afaik, given that the condition or state of the universe did lead to that process that we have detected and measured as the Big Bang, then the parameter values that we can measure now, could not have been any different. That is – those values are simply what happens when you have a process such as the Big Bang.

But in any case, we really do not yet know enough about precisely what happened in the whole process of the Big Bang, to draw any really well understood conclusions about those various parameter values.

At the moment, the religious belief, which is the belief that you are presenting, is merely what philosophers have termed a claim from ignorance or a claim from incredulity ; what you are saying is merely that because you yourself do not understand how those values arose, and because you cannot understand any actual scientific answers, you will therefore jump straight to the entirely unwarranted claim of saying that a God must have “done it”.

 

[IanS]

Hello. Let me put this another way. Note: "There are scientific references in the Qur'an. This was said in the Qur'an 14 centuries ago. If in doubt, please seek help from those who are fluent in Arabic and the Qur'an.

No, absolutely not! How many times do I have to explain it to you, that - if it were true that the Koran contains descriptions of modern science, then that would be filling literally tens of thousands of current scientific papers ... but in fact, there are NO such scientific papers making that claim at all!

That is because you actually have no evidence for your claims. If you have the evidence then publish it in a real scientific paper ... why have you never done that? ... why have none of your fellow Islamic believers ever been able to do that?

This is not a sermon. It is my ideas that are close to yours.

What you just produced IS in fact again exactly a religious sermon! You are claiming the Koran shows the evidence, but you cannot produce any real evidence that passes the essential test of being published in a real science research journal. You are preaching again!

You are also telling me that I must read and study your holy book in order to discover that it contains evidence of God revealing modern science (and that is yet more preaching from you) ... but you are completely defeated by the fact that you cannot produce any of your claimed evidence published in any real science journal.

The argument is over – you cannot produce your claimed evidence … instead all you are doing preaching ... endlessly preaching un-evidenced religious fanatical belief.

 

[Myriad]

What is that hint? Where in the book does it appear?

If the designers of the telescope came to you or to your sources and asked, "What does the Quran say about how we should best configure or operate our apparatus to find the discoveries it's hinting about," what could you tell them?

I ask again: which passage in the Quran reveals a hint about what new information about the distant universe the James Webb Space Telescope will discover? What is that hint?

 

[Scorpion]

But the universe is certainly NOT "tuned" for human life ... except on any rare planets such as our planet, 99.9999999% of the universe would be (or actually IS) instantly deadly to any human life! So that is the exact opposite of it being finely tuned for our life.
.

Oh! do you have a faster than light speed space ship we have not heard about?
Have you visited 99.9999999% of the universe ? You have just plucked a figure out of the darkness of your cynicism. You cannot possibly say what percentage of the universe is inhabitable. All we know is there are billions of galaxies and we have explored none of them. It seems to me to be more likely that the universe is populated with a super abundance of intelligent life. There are probably countless planets in the Goldilocks zone, revolving around the billions of stars in the billions of galaxies

 

[steenkh]

Hello.
-Thank you for reviewing me. I hear your criticism. Although I do not accept all your criticisms. But it is valuable to me. And I respect that. I suggest that: Review the claims of the Qur'an. The Quran is unknown.

You are the one presenting claims about the Quran. These claims have been shown to be worthless. Whenever somebody has shown this, you react by ignoring it completely and presenting a new claim, or you react with what we call a “wall of text” which is a lot of words not addressing the issue, but giving the impression that you have an answer.

-My Einstein bubble has been broken for years. Love for all human beings on earth broke it.

I have no idea what this means.