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Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

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Vixen said:
Yes, the excerpt is sourced from this fellow but it is simply a direct quote from an early newspaper article at the time.

Your excerpt was also sourced from Eriksson's article.
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I'm not sure I know what you mean by that. You made that comment before when I mentioned this Wiki page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspaper_of_record

which has nothing to do with Eriksson at all. I comment on the Aftonbladet extract to point out that even your own sources contradict your timeline. It reports that there were eight survivors and one dead body in the helicopter that left Svensson in the water, and that it took those to Huddinge. This contradicts the official timeline as well as your own; in your timeline those survivors were taken to Huddinge on an earlier trip. You don't even pay attention to your own preferred sources.

None of this addresses the main issue: You don't actually know anything about Aftonbadet's reporting other than the snippets that Bjorkman -a crank with an obvious axe to grind, a beef with the shipping industry that never granted him the success he felt he deserved, and a track record of misrepresenting what others have said -has chosen to show you. You don't know what context or qualification those ellipses hide, nor do you know whether there were errata or updates published on subsequent days. And you don't know what other, more prestigious newspapers, reported on the same event. And it hasn't occurred to you that this is a problem.
 
Here_to_learn said:
I did link to the actually report from the investigation so It's clear that I'm familiar with it.

Now one could expect you to provide supporting evidence for that the Swedish Riksdag "admitted" something or another since that was what I asked for. But surprisingly enough you don't. I can only conclude that when repeatedly have used that phrase you either are misinformed or lying.

With regards to the rest of your fantasies they have absolutely no value since they (as is your norm) lack all sources and references.
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Confirm it happened = admitted it happened. It's all the same to me, as that is the first time they confirmed it, which makes it an admission that should have made ten years earlier.
 
JesseCuster said:
That doesn't explain why the rest of the crew didn't require bribing with medals to keep them quiet, like you claim the reason for Svensson's medal.

So why didn't the rest of the rescue crew who worked with Svensson require bribing with medals to keep them quiet? Why single out Svensson with a medal for a bribe and not anyone else?
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I presume they would have been court martialled if they'd stuck their faces in their superiors' faces and screamed, 'Where's my dash-dash medal, then, you so and so?!!!'

As Peter Cook once asked of Dudley Moore, 'Who does one complain to?'
 
Vixen said:
I presume they would have been court martialled if they'd stuck their faces in their superiors' faces and screamed, 'Where's my dash-dash medal, then, you so and so?!!!'

As Peter Cook once asked of Dudley Moore, 'Who does one complain to?'
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So why, according to you, did Svensson get one? How was he different from the rest of the crew?
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Yes he did, that's the point.
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What did he do, others didn't do? Y69 also fell in the water. Was he any less heroic?

Y 69 took off from Ronneby at 0430 hrs. On reaching the scene of the accident at 0645 hrs, Y 69 reported to the OSC and was ordered to wait. At the same time, it observed a raft which, however, proved to be empty Immediately after this an upside-down lifeboat came into view with three persons hanging on to its keel. When the rescue man was lowered into the water, a strong wave washed him against the boat, injuring him in the head. When the helicopter tried to winch him up, the winch malfunctioned. Y 69 had to ask Y 74 for assistance. Y 74 was able to bring up the rescue man and the three survivors.

Since the OSC could not assign the winchless helicopter additional tasks, Y 69 left for Mariehamn.

For the remaining period Y 69 served as a reconnaissance and transport helicopter from Turku. It ended its mission in the afternoon and landed at Berga at 1530 hrs.

On the following day Y 69 carried out search operations at the scene of the accident with a crew transferred from Y 72. Six bodies were recovered.
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JAIC 7.5.5


Isn't recovering bodies also an act of deep compassion?
 
Vixen said:
Confirm it happened = admitted it happened. It's all the same to me, as that is the first time they confirmed it, which makes it an admission that should have made ten years earlier.
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Good. So we know that when you said "admitted" what you meant was "investigated and reported". For me that's two different meanings but maybe your English language knowledge can't distinguish between then.

Next part is when you will understand that it wasn't the parliament (riksdag) that did the investigation. So that word usage is also wrong.
 
Here_to_learn said:
Good. So we know that when you said "admitted" what you meant was "investigated and reported". For me that's two different meanings but maybe your English language knowledge can't distinguish between then.

Next part is when you will understand that it wasn't the parliament (riksdag) that did the investigation. So that word usage is also wrong.
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It was Johan Hirschfeldt, a High Court Appeal judge who investigated. I have never said anything different.
 
Vixen said:
I presume they would have been court martialled if they'd stuck their faces in their superiors' faces and screamed, 'Where's my dash-dash medal, then, you so and so?!!!'

As Peter Cook once asked of Dudley Moore, 'Who does one complain to?'
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So why single out Svensson for a medal? :confused:

You haven't explained at all why Svensson required giving a medal to in order to keep him quiet, but nobody else on the search and rescue crew who worked with him required any sort of medal to keep them quiet.
 
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Vixen said:
I wouldn't know. However, from the JAIC report he is not particularly more heroic than others.
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So you don't know why Svensson was given a medal to keep him quiet and his search and rescue colleagues weren't given medals to keep them quiet.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
But the point is they worked from a winch they didn't just jump in to the water. They had a second rescue man aboard to speed operations.

Also consider that OH-HVG along with OH-HVD it were dedicated SAR helicopters with a crews trained in recovery from the sea.
Similarly the Swedish 'Q' helicopters were dedicated SAR helicopters whereas the 'Y' helicopters were Anti Submarine helicopters pressed in to service with crews specialising in AS warfare, not SAR.

Only two landings were made aboard ships, one each by OH-HVG and OH-HVD but it proved too rough to continue with this and survivors had to be taken directly ashore.

OH-HVG was the first helicopter there, it was from Finland. Alerted at 01:35, it took off at 02:30 and arrived at the scene at 03:05. It was on one hour standby.

It did not save 44 survivors in one hour. That was the total number saved in three flights between the first at 03:05 and the end of the final flight at 12:30. Most were saved on the second flight between 0515 hrs to 0915 when there was enough light to see survivors in the water.

It made a fourth flight with a new crew between 16:00 and 19:15 only bodies were recovered.
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The first Finnish helicopter returned to shore because the work was exhausting and they needed to get a new rescue swimmer and get four people they already saved to safety. They returned at 0600 am and rescued 40 people. Swedish also did short trips to the shore, from 0500 to 0540 am. The Finnish helicopter was the only one capable of landing on the ferries whilst others had to periodically return to shore which is why they were able to rescue so many. Since the first helicopter arrived at 3:05 there was always at least one helicopter present on the scene. 137* people in total were saved, 104 of them by helicopters. Swedish helicopters rescued 18% of those saved and almost 25% of those rescued by helicopter.

The helicopter crews made almost heroic efforts in the harsh weather. A single Finnish helicopter managed to rescue 37 people and took care of 11 dead people. It was extremely stressful both physically and mentally. Many lifeguards were injured by hooks and various objects.

HS 30.9.1994

77 dead found at sea Ships and helicopters continued searches until dark came 30.9.1994 2:00 TURKU - Searches continued near Utö on Thursday no longer found any survivors. Instead, 19 bodies were found, some of which were close to Estonia's supposed sinking site. A total of 77 deaths have now been found. Five vessels and 11 helicopters continued to search the area of the accident until dark. Four of the helicopters were always in the air at a time. Helicopters will leave for sea again on Friday morning, although survivors are no longer believed to be found. 138 of those saved were reported on Wednesday, but the number of those saved rose to 140 on Thursday. The confusion was due to the fact that the names of the two survivors were not on the ship's passenger lists. Tiilikainen estimated that there may have been 10-15 people on board whose names do not appear on the lists. "We simply don't know if the names of the children who traveled with their parents were left unwritten or whether ten people with the same name went on board." There have been a total of 63 rescued patients in Finnish hospitals, including 37 at Turku University Central Hospital, eight at Mariehamn Hospital, four at Parainen Health Center, eight at Hanko Health Center and five at Ekenäs Regional Hospital. According to county doctor Aki Linden, all patients are relatively well. Most of them got home as early as Thursday. About twenty victims of the accident will remain in hospital.
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*137 is the final official figure. (Excluding the Estonia crew originally included in survivor lists.)
 
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Vixen said:
I presume they would have been court martialled if they'd stuck their faces in their superiors' faces and screamed, 'Where's my dash-dash medal, then, you so and so?!!!'
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Can you actually court-martial someone for refusing to keep quiet about being involved in an illegal rendition?

If so, then why not threaten to court-martial Svensson too? :confused:

You really don't have anything resembling a coherent narrative here about why Svensson specifically was given a medal.
 
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