Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

[Andy_Ross]

Of course I understand what classification means. I have been to the National Archives a few times to look at documents declassified, some of which had never been requisitioned by anyone other than myself.

Try looking at pages 27 - 28 where it discusses the S/S Hansa, a Swedish merchant ship, also targetted by the Soviets despite its neutral colours.

What about it?

Britain had such a dominance at sea that it was able to force neutral shipping in to the allied war effort.

Great Britain had such complete control of the surface of the oceans that it was able to force neutral merchant ships to participate in the Allied war effort. Ms. Behrens, writing in the official British history of the Merchant Navy, described the intensification of the system in 1940:
"In the summer of 1940, the ship warrant scheme was launched, both to further the purposes of economic warfare and in order to force neutral ships into British service or into trades elsewhere that were held to be essential. No ship, it was ordained . . . was to be allowed any facilities in any port of the British Commonwealth unless the British had furnished her with a warrant. Throughout the Second World War the United States, first as a neutral and then as a belligerent, cooperated fully with the British methods."
As a matter of theory, neutral states did not have to cooperate with the Allied naval powers, but they realized that failure to cooperate would result in the application of much more stringent economic warfare measures against them. The result of this integration of neutral merchant ships into the Allied war effort is that they became lawful objects of attack like similarly employed belligerent merchant ships. Only those few neutral merchant ships engaged in genuine inter-neutral trade were immune from attack.

https://digital-commons.usnwc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1735&context=ils

Germany introduced unrestricted submarine warfare before the end of 1939 and by 1940 was sinking ships without warning including neutral vessels.

In the Baltic neutral shipping was used to ship iron ore and other imports in to Germany making them legitimate targets for allied attacks.

 

[Andy_Ross]

How is it a problem?

Are you seriously claiming Svensson got the equivalent of the Victoria Cross for falling into the water?

Who says it was the equivalent of the 'Victoria Cross'?

Why do you always take one small aspect of something and try t oclaim it is the whole thing?

 

[Andy_Ross]

Yes, the excerpt is sourced from this fellow but it is simply a direct quote from an early newspaper article at the time.

Your excerpt was also sourced from Eriksson's article.

How do you know it is a direct quote when you haven't seen the original?

 

[Andy_Ross]

"11 (or 9) persons in raft "P" were rescued by helicopter OH-HVG and put aboard Mariella at 07.05 hrs. Eight were recorded in the OH-HVG log book: Aarne Koppel, Andres Vihmar, Holger Wachtmeister, Larissa Skorohodova, Vassili Märtson, Peter Järvinen, Aulis Lee, Paul Siht. Altti Hakanpää says he was with eight persons in raft "P" but his name is not in the log book. Apparently also Tanel Moosaar and Tomas Grunde were put aboard the 'Mariella'. The others in raft "P" were rescued by helicopter OH-HVD and put aboard the 'Silja Europa'.

At 08.10 hrs one survivor, Märtson, was flown away from the 'Mariella' to Finland.

Yes, your point being?

Only two helicopters managed to land on the ships once each to put survivors aboard. after that it was too rough. There were two wire transfers of injured survivors up to helicopters and after that the only transfers were of support staff on to the ships by wire.

 

[Vixen]

Er, yes. So you're claiming the German secret police are in on the conspiracy too?

Your naivete is touching.

Attorney Henning Witte explains it thus:

The Estonian consul had received information that Piht had been a prisoner in a small house in Uppsala. A reliable Swedish source in the Swedish Ministry of Defense has told Spiegel TV that the US intelligence service had hijacked Piht and others because they knew too much. According to the source, they would now live in the US and have received monetary compensation for their suffering. The information has been verified by Captain Werner Hummel and attorney Peter Holtappels. Interpol has also issued a search warrant for the mythical captain. According to the daily newspaper of the Estonian newspaper, Andi Meister confirmed that Piht and others survived. According to Meister, Piht was such an important witness that he had to be eliminated. It should be noted that the oddities regarding the survivors have been limited to a small part of the crew who may have had information about M / S Estonia's sensitive cargo. They must have had very aggravating information. Especially in Estonia and Germany, the disappearance of Piht and others has received enormous attention. Only the Swedish (I: And Finland) media have more or less refused to address the issue. In 1996, however, the Swedish Criminal Police conducted an interrogation. four crew members claimed to have seen the shocked but live Avo Piht news film on German television. Estlines' own captain Erich Moik, along with his men, is also among those who had seen Avo Piht on television. In his employer’s version, Moik denied this. Moik informed STV Rapport, who, however, did not want to show the interview. When Spiegel TV inquired about the ZDF news film from the channel, the troubled archivist had said that the German intelligence service BundesNachrichteniDienst had already searched the archive for these images. The news clip shows how a Swedish ambulance is transporting Pihti away. The vehicle from Farsta has the symbol B804.

B804 is a Huddinge Hospital ambulance.

Anyone who has seen someone they know on television will understand how you instantly recognise someone.

I was once in a tv audience. I had no idea I had been clipped until people started telling me they had seen me on that show - for literally just a few seconds.

Likewise, there was one occasion I was idly watching the news when a news item about the British Medical Association came up. I was amused to spot a group of my work colleagues standing outside in the street, caught by the cameraman having a cigarette and a chat. Next morning, it seemed my boss had also caught the split second glimpse and was hopping mad, as they were paid by time and he had no idea they were having these cigarette/gossip break.

 

[Andy_Ross]

If your textbook is the one you linked to recently, Sea of Death: The Baltic, 1945 by Claes-Göran Wetterholm, then you are mistaken.

Perhaps you are mis-remembering this passage (in which case an apology would be welcomed by all):



(Any typos in that passage are mine.)

Hospital ships were sunk anyway.

 

[Andy_Ross]

They do communicate with each other, you know.

So that means Germany is part of the conspiracy to cover up and hide the truth about the sinking?

How many more countries are part of the cover up?

 

[GlennB]

I stand by my claim Gustloff counted as a civilian ship when it was sunk.

While signally failing to provide the reference you claimed to have. Any idiot can 'stand by' a claim. Boris Johnson does it all the time yet is recognised as a blatant, serial liar.

 

[Vixen]

Why look at that reference from the book for a different claim about a differnt ship, when you claim the book says something specifically about the Wilhelm Gustloff?

You've been caught bluffing Vixen! Why not just cite what you claim the book actually says about the Wilhelm Gustloff being a hospital ship when it was sank and it being painted grey in the typical colour of a hospital ship?

Because the book you cited as a reference claims no such thing. I have access to that book on Kindle. Others can check your reference too.

Busted!

Just a reminder of what I said. I said wikipedia was not my source of information on the Gustloff in response to posters claiming it was only right it was sunk as it was listed as a war ship on wikipedia.

 

[Vixen]

You have been told more than once what actions he got the medal for on the flight around 6am. How do you explain his getting a medal but the rest of Y64's crew not getting one if it was to buy his silence about your fantasy 3am flight?

He got the medal. They did not.

You explain it to me.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Ask yourself the question: Why did Svensson get the equivalent of the Victoria Cross, but not his chums who saved the other 44 or 49 (depending on whether you take the figure of six or one)?

Who says it was the equivalent of the Victoria Cross? which is only awarded for gallantry in combat?


He is the one that went above and beyond his duty, he was stranded in the sea, rescued himself then took over the job of another injured crewan until he himself was injured.
Classic commendation.


How do you know others weren't commended for a decoration but didn't make the grade?

 

[Vixen]

Just making sure you don't conflate what the Riksdag admitted to with all the lurid stuff about heroin, dangerous weapons etc.

The heroin claim is a claim by the Felix Group, supposedly made up of ex-speznats and named after the person who founded Russian/Soviet spy agencies.

You can say it is 'lurid' but Silve Linde, JAIC golden witness, was jailed in 1996 for drug smuggling. The Finnish prosecutor wanted eleven years. He got nine years.

Fact or fiction?

 

[Vixen]

That Riksdagen (The Swedish parliament) "admitted" something like Vixen posts is of course not how it works.

The government initiated (dec 3rd, 2004) an investigation about "transport of military material onboard M/S Estonia during september 1994". Johan Hirschfeldt was assigned to it - at the time he was a high-ranking judge.

When he completed the investigation the result was made public.

Where the "Riksdagen admitted" part comes from I don't know.

Ah but that is all a conspiracy theory <wink wink>.

 

[GlennB]

He got the medal. They did not.

You explain it to me.

"Conspicuous gallantry"

"Bravery above and beyond the call of duty"

"For valour"

 

[zooterkin]

Hospital ships were sunk anyway.

Yes, a later passage says that. The point in dispute at this point, however, was Vixen’s claim that the book stated that grey was the colour that hospital ships were painted. That claim is clearly untrue.

 

[zooterkin]

Wikipedia is not always correct. My textbook describes the Wilhelm Gustloff as being painted grey in the classic colour of a hospital ship. Operation Hannibal was a mass evacuation of civilians from Prussia, which was now a Soviet -occupation (Kaliningrad). The submarine commander who torpedoed it despite having a record number of successes in sinking German ships, his downing of civilians (even if hated Germans) was not treated as particularly heroic and he soon went into obscurity as a drunk, albeit there is some kind of memorial to him in Russia.

Just a reminder of what I said. I said wikipedia was not my source of information on the Gustloff in response to posters claiming it was only right it was sunk as it was listed as a war ship on wikipedia.

What you said is quoted above, as a reminder for you.

What you said is demonstrably incorrect.

 

[Andy_Ross]

From Chapter 17 of the report concerning the helicopters

17.4 Readiness of the Rescue Units.

Three Finnish helicopters were on stand-by at various bases. The crews were on one-hour alert, meaning that they should be assembled within that time. Three of the Swedish stand-by helicopters should be ready to depart within one hour, and one should be ready to depart within two hours. All stand-by helicopters fulfilled the requirements. The first helicopters took off earlier than their alert times required.
It is of utmost importance in an accident like this one that rescue helicopters reach the accident scene fast, as survival time in cold water is short. It is the view of the Commission that stand-by times can be shortened, with minimum costs, through:

more efficient ways of alerting helicopter crews and other personnel required for take off, e.g. by using more modern technology,
briefing the crews during transport to the helicopter bases and during the initial phase of the flight,
speeding up transport times to the bases, especially for crew members living far from the bases.

 

[Here_to_learn]

Ah but that is all a conspiracy theory <wink wink>.

What?

The investigation concludes that the Swedish defense did not transport military material onboard M/S Estonia at the night of the sinking. So since you quite often reference that investigation that has to be something you agree with.

And since you responded to my post, maybe you can explain what you mean when you say that the "Riksdag admitted" something? What are you referring to, and what is your source?

 

[Vixen]

Who says it was the equivalent of the 'Victoria Cross'?

Why do you always take one small aspect of something and try t oclaim it is the whole thing?

OK, so I retract that; it is not a war medal.

From wikipedia re the awards from (1995–2009) :

The Swedish Armed Forces Medal of Merit is a Swedish military award and medal established by the Swedish Armed Forces in 1995. The award is a combat award but is not included in the war decorations . It was distributed on the recommendation of the Commander-in-Chief .
Gold medal can be awarded either for:
• extraordinarily personal courage which saved human lives
• repeated dangerous efforts to save lives or for
• extraordinary effort that in a decisive way benefited the Armed Forces
• outstanding efforts that have benefited the Armed Forces.
Silver medal can be awarded for:
• dangerous action for saving human lives or for
• outstanding effort that has benefited the Armed Forces.

An upright sword of gold and silver, respectively, is placed on the medal ribbon if the medal has been awarded for personal courage. The medal and a diploma were awarded to individuals as a reward for commendable service in the Armed Forces. The medal was awarded to the Armed Forces employed or serving personnel.

The medal will not be awarded after 2009-12-31 when it was replaced by the Swedish Armed Forces' merit medal . The medal is worn on the chest in a yellow ribbon with or without an upright sword in gold or silver attached to the middle of the ribbon. The reverse side of the medal shows the Swedish Armed Forces' heraldic coat of arms and around the outer edge the text "FOR FAMOUS EFFORTS". The front shows around the outer edge a bearing wreath and the recipient's name and year.

The medal is available in four denominations:
• In gold with sword.
• In silver with sword.
• In gold
• In silver

• Alvar Älmeberg (pilot) on the shot down DC3 13 June 1952, awarded posthumously 13 June 2004. [ 1 ]
• Gösta Blad (navigator and signalman) on the shot down DC3 13 June 1952, awarded posthumously 13 June 2004. [ 2 ]
• Herbert Mattson (flight mechanic) on the shot down DC3 June 13, 1952, awarded posthumously June 13, 2004. [ 3 ]
• Carl-Einar Jonsson (FRA, group leader) on the shot down DC3 13 June 1952, awarded posthumously 13 June 2004. [ 4 ]
• Ivar Svensson (FRA, telegraphist) on the shot down DC3 13 June 1952, awarded posthumously 13 June 2004. [ 5 ]
• Erik Carlsson (FRA, telegraph operator and Russian interpreter) on the shot down DC3 13 June 1952, awarded posthumously 13 June 2004.
• Bengt Book (FRA, telegraphist) on the shot down DC3 13 June 1952, awarded posthumously 13 June 2004. [ 6 ]
• Börje Nilsson (FRA, telegraph operator from Malmö ) on the shot down DC3 13 June 1952, awarded posthumously 13 June 2004. [ 7 ]
• Ensign Kenneth Svensson, surface rescuer at the sinking of M / S Estonia 27 September 1994, awarded 15 January 1996. [ 8 ]

Not to detract from Svensson's undoubted bravery but how come he got a such a medal and the others did not (not even silver or bronze)?

Bearing in mind Y74 rescued not only him but also Y69 rescue man.

Not being funny but there is a common stereotype amongst older Finns of the Swedes as being 'gay', probably because they have never had to go to war, at least, not since 1721 at the Battle of Poltava (which included Finns of course, including my own sixth-great-grandfather, a major under Leuwenhaupt) or a skirmish with the Norwegians in 1788. I asked a few Finns whether this was a common view of the Swedes and they answered unfortunately, yes. [Don't shoot me, I am only the messenger. Hopefully people are more enlightened nowadays especially as Tom of Finland put gay art on the map.)

 

[Vixen]

How do you know it is a direct quote when you haven't seen the original?

Eriksson's article appeared the same day 28.9.1994 so it is unlikely he plagiarised it from elsewhere. It is possible of course that Svensson spoke to several reporters at the same time as he came through Berga.