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Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

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Captain_Swoop said:
But you claimed that a German news company had it's video seized by secret police.

If it was in Germany it could only have been German secret police.

That would mean that Germany is part of the conspiracy and is 'in on it'

I don't think Sweden can send it's police to seize video from a German company.
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They do communicate with each other, you know.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
That doesn't answer the question.

If it was a secret mission, why award him a medal that draws attention to him?

Why didn't the rest of the crew get a reward for flying the secret mission?
I would think the pilot at least would get something
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Ask yourself the question: Why did Svensson get the equivalent of the Victoria Cross, but not his chums who saved the other 44 or 49 (depending on whether you take the figure of six or one)?
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Yes he did get a medal.

Why don't you just answer the question?

Why were the rest of the crew not given medals to keep them quiet qabout their secret mission?
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Ask yourself: "How come Svensson got a Gold Medal of Merit with Sword?"


"How come his fellow rescue men did not get a Medal of Merit from Swedish Armed Forces?"


What exactly are you disputing?
 
LondonJohn said:
It's not just a teeeeeeny bit possible, then, that the authorities had:

1) A manifest of all the officers and crew who were aboard the Estonia that night; and

2) A reliable list (after around Day 2) of all the survivors.

And that they looked to see which officers (and crew) were on the survivors' list, then subtracted those from the manifest.....

.....leaving them with the names and ranks of every officer and crewmember who, by then, would be confirmed dead?



Maybe? Just maybe? Rather than your fantasy of divers going round IDing the bodies of crew?
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So let me see...


Buggins, faithfully noting people being brought out of the sea: Name? Date of Birth?

Man: Joe Bloggs, 2.9.1966

Buggins: Who's next?!


--

Police two days later: Joe Bloggs is no longer on the list.

--

Major-General Svensson-Hensson: The brave man who rescued Joe Bloggs is to receive the Armed Forces highest level of honour: a Gold Medal with Sword.
 
Vixen said:
Of course I understand what classification means. I have been to the National Archives a few times to look at documents declassified, some of which had never been requisitioned by anyone other than myself.

Try looking at pages 27 - 28 where it discusses the S/S Hansa, a Swedish merchant ship, also targetted by the Soviets despite its neutral colours.
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Why look at that reference from the book for a different claim about a differnt ship, when you claim the book says something specifically about the Wilhelm Gustloff?

You've been caught bluffing Vixen! Why not just cite what you claim the book actually says about the Wilhelm Gustloff being a hospital ship when it was sank and it being painted grey in the typical colour of a hospital ship?

Because the book you cited as a reference claims no such thing. I have access to that book on Kindle. Others can check your reference too.

Busted!
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Who did?

What evidence do you have for these cameras in helmets?

Did they all have them or just some of them?

ETA. I misunderstood your post.

You mean the divers had cameras on their helmets?

OK, so how would that help? Do you think the crew on the support ship would know what the missing men looked like? You have seen the quality of the pictures the divers were getting.
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Seriously? The navy and the Rockwater divers didn't bother trying to identify the senior crew 'because the quality of pictures'.
 
Vixen said:
The Customs Man's claims are not unsupported, they were officially confirmed by the Riksdag in 2005.



Just because you cannot grasp it doesn't mean it didn't happen.
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What specific claims were admitted by the Riksdag? Not that people in US Marine uniform escorted lorries of contraband to the docks, I suppose?
 
LondonJohn said:
And given Bjorkman's extensive "previous" - here and elsewhere - I most certainly wouldn't say it's a given that he's quoting the newspaper reports in an accurate, contextually-appropriate and honest fashion.

So I'd suggest that a reasonable default position for each and every one of these "Bjorkman says that they newspaper said that..." claims is to reject them pending proper, reliable sourcing.
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From Reformed Offlian's own link:

Survivors were a professional group that came into focus during the rescue work. Kenneth Svensson, then ensign at the helicopter division in Berga, is one of these heroes. He rescued eight people from the raging sea, seven of whom survived.
"I will never forget the visions I encountered when I went down to those in need," he said afterwards.
When the winch for the helicopter got into trouble, he at one point dived into the water without a lifeline to try to save another person in need. Kenneth Svensson was later awarded the Defense Medal of Merit in gold.
He still serves as a lifeguard, now at the Malmen helicopter flotilla outside Linköping. (TT)
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Well, of course, the wikipedia contributor who added that footnote might believe the above is the reason Svensson got the medal in light of any absence of any other explanation.

How likely do you think it is, bearing in mind the Finnish helicopter crews didn't work from 'winch only', they had a two man crew who went down on winches and one who actually dived into the water to swim to the stricken survivor.
 
Vixen said:
Ask yourself: "How come Svensson got a Gold Medal of Merit with Sword?"





"How come his fellow rescue men did not get a Medal of Merit from Swedish Armed Forces?"





What exactly are you disputing?
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You have been told more than once what actions he got the medal for on the flight around 6am. How do you explain his getting a medal but the rest of Y64's crew not getting one if it was to buy his silence about your fantasy 3am flight?
 
GlennB said:
This is a thought that occurred to me, but I forgot to follow it up. Finland and Estonia are EET, while Sweden is CET, afaics. In which zone the sinking occurred I don't know, nor whether it's relevant here.

I do recall that 9/11 cranks got very excited about the speed at which the ill-fated Payne Stewart private jet was intercepted (arguing that it meant that USAF jets had time to intercept the 9/11 flights) but didn't notice that the plane crossed a time zone between takeoff and interception. They simply deducted one number from another and failed to add an hour.
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The East Europe time zones coordinates are:

22°30' E – 37°30' E

The Estonia wreck East coordinates are:

21°41′E

It falls into EET because time zones are based on the nearest geographical country, even though the Estonia lies technically to the west of the eastern Europe time zone.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
Just making sure you don't conflate what the Riksdag admitted to with all the lurid stuff about heroin, dangerous weapons etc.
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That Riksdagen (The Swedish parliament) "admitted" something like Vixen posts is of course not how it works.

The government initiated (dec 3rd, 2004) an investigation about "transport of military material onboard M/S Estonia during september 1994". Johan Hirschfeldt was assigned to it - at the time he was a high-ranking judge.

When he completed the investigation the result was made public.

Where the "Riksdagen admitted" part comes from I don't know.
 
zooterkin said:
If your textbook is the one you linked to recently, Sea of Death: The Baltic, 1945 by Claes-Göran Wetterholm, then you are mistaken.

Perhaps you are mis-remembering this passage (in which case an apology would be welcomed by all):



(Any typos in that passage are mine.)
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I stand by my claim Gustloff counted as a civilian ship when it was sunk.
 
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