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Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

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You keep lying that my well-sourced and referenced citations are my imaginative fantasies.
Do you remember what your "well-sourced and referenced citation" was for the claim that nuclear material dissolved the lock on the bow visor? I think the rest of us do. It was a parody website.

What was your "well-sourced and referenced citation" for the hypothesis that the Estonia could have been sunk by a submarine firing blank torpedos at it?

What was your "well-sourced and referenced citation" for the hypothesis that wheeled submarines that left tracks on the bottom of the Baltic could have had something to do with the sinking of the Estonia? (it was a comical misunderstanding of the word 'submarine' that lead to that bizarre idea)

Etc. etc.
 
Yup.

This table from the report lists all the alert times, readiness times, who alerted them and how they were alerted.

https://onse.fi/estonia/kuvat/suuren/kuva7_7s.gif


No.....but....but Vixen has a sense of these things! And she knows that in 1994 the helicopters could be (and were, on that night) in the air and en route within 15 minutes of the first alarms.

After all, who are any of us to argue with someone who has such an innate Spidey-sense of helicopter scramble times (despite having zero experience or understanding of military/SAR operations, and living in a different country)?
 
Indeed, it's obvious she's cribbing from Björkman. It's understandable, but dishonest, that she is reluctant to cite him as the lens through which she is attempting to view the primary sources.


And given Bjorkman's extensive "previous" - here and elsewhere - I most certainly wouldn't say it's a given that he's quoting the newspaper reports in an accurate, contextually-appropriate and honest fashion.

So I'd suggest that a reasonable default position for each and every one of these "Bjorkman says that they newspaper said that..." claims is to reject them pending proper, reliable sourcing.
 
Vixen told us that when it came to retraction or correction of the early lists of survivors "we don't see it anywhere". But if she hasn't been looking at the original sources of these lists then why would she imply she knows whether or not they were corrected or updated? Mysterious.
 
A 'man overboard lifeboat' is a small inflatable with an outboard motor.

Why do you think it was launched and didn't just float free as the ship sank?

Why is that boat special compared to the other boats?

Why would you choose to use a small 'man overboard boat' that is just an inflatable with an outboard rather than a proper life raft or life boat?

This is a rescue boat.
https://amimarine.com/product/ocean-safety-solas-450-rescue-rib/


Indeed. And intentionally launching a small un-canvassed RIB with an outboard motor into the dark stormy waters of that night would be more-or-less an invitation to be swamped and disgorged into the Baltic Sea within minutes.

In fact, the only conceivable reason why anyone would even have tried such an option would have been if they were totally out of any other option - ie if they'd managed to get out of the ship in time before it sank, but there were no life rafts of any variety still available (or even nearby: swimming out to a nearby life raft, wearing a life vest and some sort of insulation, would have still been vastly preferable to taking your chances in a RIB)
 
What was your "well-sourced and referenced citation" for the hypothesis that wheeled submarines that left tracks on the bottom of the Baltic could have had something to do with the sinking of the Estonia? (it was a comical misunderstanding of the word 'submarine' that lead to that bizarre idea)

Etc. etc.

I think the thought there was that some kind of tampering with the wreck had been going on.
 
No.....but....but Vixen has a sense of these things! And she knows that in 1994 the helicopters could be (and were, on that night) in the air and en route within 15 minutes of the first alarms.

After all, who are any of us to argue with someone who has such an innate Spidey-sense of helicopter scramble times (despite having zero experience or understanding of military/SAR operations, and living in a different country)?

Finnish OH-HVG was alerted at 01:35, was in the air at 02:30 and over the rescue area by 03:05.

First Swedish helicopter Q 97 was alerted at 02:05, was in the air at 02:50 and was over the rescue area by 03:50

Y 65 was there just 10 minutes later.

That's three helicopters that the claim for which rescuing the disappeared men could have been made without adding in an extra flight.

It would make even more sense to claim that a helicopter not included in the official record made the flight.
 
Silly question but are all of those alert times etc referenced to the same time zone?

This is a thought that occurred to me, but I forgot to follow it up. Finland and Estonia are EET, while Sweden is CET, afaics. In which zone the sinking occurred I don't know, nor whether it's relevant here.

I do recall that 9/11 cranks got very excited about the speed at which the ill-fated Payne Stewart private jet was intercepted (arguing that it meant that USAF jets had time to intercept the 9/11 flights) but didn't notice that the plane crossed a time zone between takeoff and interception. They simply deducted one number from another and failed to add an hour.
 
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Why did you draw attention to a survey that presumes to show that anyone who doesn't accept the JAIC conclusion must be (a) stupid (b) ill educated and (c) lower class, etc? IMV it is ludicrous to lump this in with the antivaxxer movement.
He's reporting on current events?

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You have shown zero indication that you have any grasp of intelligence studies. None. You clearly don't understand the process of or even fully comprehend what classification is. You're claiming to understand something that's outside your extremely limited knowledgebase again.

Now, are you finally going to answer my request? Stop deflecting and answer.

Of course I understand what classification means. I have been to the National Archives a few times to look at documents declassified, some of which had never been requisitioned by anyone other than myself.

Try looking at pages 27 - 28 where it discusses the S/S Hansa, a Swedish merchant ship, also targetted by the Soviets despite its neutral colours.
 
Yes. That's never been in dispute. But the rest of Y64's crew did not. Which was a problem for your version of events. So now you have had to modify the tale of your invented early flight yet again so that now you want us to imagine that the feats for which he got the medal were on the earlier flight and deliberately misattributed to the later one.

So you now claim it was around 3am when Svensson took over from his injured colleague and carried on rescuing survivors until he too was injured and couldn't carry on.

But then the injured Svensson went back out to do more rescuing at around 6am. Right? Sure.

How is it a problem?

Are you seriously claiming Svensson got the equivalent of the Victoria Cross for falling into the water?
 
Of course I understand what classification means. I have been to the National Archives a few times to look at documents declassified, some of which had never been requisitioned by anyone other than myself.

Try looking at pages 27 - 28 where it discusses the S/S Hansa, a Swedish merchant ship, also targetted by the Soviets despite its neutral colours.

So you admit your quote about hospital ships being painted grey was made up?
 
Her quotes have ellipses in exactly the same places they appear in Bjorkman's material. Vixen has not evinced any knowledge of Aftonbladet's coverage outside of those extracts (such as whether they issued any corrections/updates on following days).

When I pressed her for links to the original article, she admitted she didn't have it, and only reluctantly provided a link to a page that, in turn, linked back to Bjorkman.

Yes, the excerpt is sourced from this fellow but it is simply a direct quote from an early newspaper article at the time.

Your excerpt was also sourced from Eriksson's article.
 
Mariella didn't receive any survivors from helicopters, one injured survivor was picked up from Mariella by the Finnish helicopter X 92 for emergency transport to hospital by stretcher. One injured survivor was picked up from Isabella by Finnish helicopter X42 by stretcher.
These were both wire transfers as the ships were rolling too much for a landing.

Only two helicopters managed to land on ships to transfer survivors to them, they were both Finnish helicopters, OH-HVG got on to Symphony and OH-HVD got on to Europa.
After this it was too rough to land safely so all survivors were taken direct to shore, that is one of the reasons more helicopters were called in to the rescue.

Here are all the wire transfers.

Y 74 another Finnish helicopter lowered medical staff on to the Symphony by wire as it was too rough to land on the deck.

X 42 attempted to land seven men of the Turku city fire department aboard Europa to serve as rescue men but this was abandoned because the vessel was rolling so badly that it would have been dangerous to land on the helicopter deck. They therefore stayed with the helicopter all day as first-aid personnel.

X 62 In the late morning, attempted to land five physicians and six firemen and an air traffic control office aboard Europa however, it proved impossible to land, as the stern deck of the vessel was rising and falling about 10 metres at a time so they were winched down instead.

Y 65 rescue man got stuck on the winch rope when it jammed and had to be flown to the Europa where he was put on to the deck.

Y 75 lowered medical staff to the Symphony in the afternoon.

"11 (or 9) persons in raft "P" were rescued by helicopter OH-HVG and put aboard Mariella at 07.05 hrs. Eight were recorded in the OH-HVG log book: Aarne Koppel, Andres Vihmar, Holger Wachtmeister, Larissa Skorohodova, Vassili Märtson, Peter Järvinen, Aulis Lee, Paul Siht. Altti Hakanpää says he was with eight persons in raft "P" but his name is not in the log book. Apparently also Tanel Moosaar and Tomas Grunde were put aboard the 'Mariella'. The others in raft "P" were rescued by helicopter OH-HVD and put aboard the 'Silja Europa'.

At 08.10 hrs one survivor, Märtson, was flown away from the 'Mariella' to Finland
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Wikipedia is not always correct. My textbook describes the Wilhelm Gustloff as being painted grey in the classic colour of a hospital ship. Operation Hannibal was a mass evacuation of civilians from Prussia, which was now a Soviet -occupation (Kaliningrad). The submarine commander who torpedoed it despite having a record number of successes in sinking German ships, his downing of civilians (even if hated Germans) was not treated as particularly heroic and he soon went into obscurity as a drunk, albeit there is some kind of memorial to him in Russia.

If your textbook is the one you linked to recently, Sea of Death: The Baltic, 1945 by Claes-Göran Wetterholm, then you are mistaken.

Perhaps you are mis-remembering this passage (in which case an apology would be welcomed by all):

From 4 December 1939, the Steuben was the command vessel in Danzig-Neufahrwasser and was later to be taken as a Verwundetentransportshiff (transport ship for the wounded). This was not quite the same thing as a hospital ship. The latter, painted white and with red crosses, would be protected by the Geneva Convention, but transport ships for the wounded were painted grey and fitted with anti-aircraft artillery.

(Any typos in that passage are mine.)
 
Your evidence is Russian anti-Western propaganda you can't even be bothered to quote.

Impressive.

So it is official when by a western agency but propaganda when Russian.

In the “Felix report”, which is said to have been written in 1996 by a former KGB agent, Estonia was used by the Russian mafia for arms smuggling. The ship sank when the smugglers found out that they had been exposed and tried to dump the cargo by opening the ramp in the middle of the sea.
ekdeeps


Of course, no criminal type would ever dream of doing anything remotely high risk for a few £'000's.
 
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